I was reading this story just now about a pregnant woman who assaulted a bartender who refused her service:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/14/...in3835161.shtml

It got me to thinking: What would I have done in the bartender's shoes? (Now, clearly the assault on the bartender is way out of line. That's not up for debate.) It seems that there are two sides to the coin. Does the potential danger to the unborn baby outweigh the woman's right to be served alcohol? I'm truly not sure what I would have done. (It's not totally clear in the story whether she was refused service because she was pregnant or because she was intoxicated. Let's assume it was because she was pregnant.)

I don't think I would have been bold enough to come out and tell her what to do, but I would likely have given a dirty look or two. What would you have done?

I would have refused her alcohol.

That's a tough one. If I were a bartender I would be inclined not to serve her the alcohol if she was visibly pregnant, but then again - what if it's not my establishment/business, would I risk losing my job? If she was visibly intoxicated already, then it'd be easier not to serve her on that premise.

I think it depends greatly on whether she was already intoxicated or not and what she was ordering, b/c in France and maybe other parts of Europe, it's considered acceptable for women after their first trimester to drink red wine - so alot of it has to do with culture too. In America I think it's safe to say it is definately not considered acceptable in any form.

Honestly, I think in the bartender's shoes, I'd serve the alcohol, b/c I'm one that for the most part, doesn't get into other people's business, especially strangers. It's her choice and I'm nobody to interfere. I wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't interfere.

I would serve her, no doubt. Zillions of women have been drinking alcohol while pregnant, and she's an adult who probably knows as much about alcohol as i do.

I wouldn't. And I would hope that my job would be in greater risk if I did serve than if I didn't.

She can still go to a store, buy alcohol and consume it wherever else she pleases, but not on my watch. I had a drink during a couple of special occasions while I was pregnant - but I would not put a bartender or wait-staff in the position of feeling uneasy about doing their job.

Ya know...over twenty-four years ago, when I was pregnant with my son...I was sitting with my husband in the lounge of a hotel in which we were staying.
My husband was drinking a Virgin Mary and I had a "virgin" Pina Colada.
I drank NO alchohol when I was pregnant.
Well...two couples walked up to us...and they started yelling at me that I shouldn't be drinking and told me I wanted my baby to die...and a lot of other things. BTW, they were pretty tipsy.
I felt like dirt...for even being in...*shudder*...a lounge whilst pregnant.
Thank goodness the bartender came over and practically pulled them off of me...and told them my drink had no alcohol in it.
All in all very embarrassing and not a little frightening to me.
Aside from their appalling behaviour and attack on me...what business of theirs was it whether or not I was drinking an alchoholic beverage?
None of their business, IMHO.


As a bartender, would I serve alcohol to a pregnant woman?
I honestly don't know.
I wouldn't want to.
It might also depend on the drink, whether or not the woman appeared to have had more to drink...and if my boss were around.
If someone higher-up than me were there...I would ask his/her advice, I suppose.
If the boss told me not to serve her...then I would have no problem with that.

I think it's my business in the sense that the baby can't defend itself. If the mother doesn't look out for it, then someone has to. If that someone is me, I would step up. No, you can't drink while you're pregnant.



I agree those people were nasty, but that's not a reason to serve alcohol to pregnant women.



Whatever prevents fetal alcohol syndrome, I really don't care whose feelings get hurt.

I tend to be more of the "not-on-my-watch" school of bartending, like dewey eyed. I think bartenders have the prerogative to use their judgment on whether they think a customer has had too much to drink, for whatever reason, and to refuse to serve a customer. Assault is obviously out of the question, even if the bartender was dead wrong. I would like to see the management of that bar support the bartender by posting a policy saying it is at the discretion of the bar/bartender whom they will or will not serve.

Well, perhaps those people I posted about should have not assumed that I was boozing it up...
Of course drunk people are rarely diplomatic...and I can't see the scenario where they might have given me the benefit of the doubt...and perhaps even asked what I was drinking.
I mean...if they felt it was their business to almost assault me because they *assumed* I was drinking an alcoholic drink...then surely they shouldn't consider it being rude or too personal to even ask WHAT I was, or wasn't, drinking.

I do admit that I would feel as if I were harming an unborn child if I did serve a pregnant woman alcohol.

I've taken care of children with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and Fetal Alcohol Effects. One of the moms would have an occasional drink in the evening with her husband to relax - unfortunately, in her case, the baby's system was permanantly adversely affected by the alcohol. I wouldn't want to take the chance of sentencing a child to a lifetime of mental disability, especially when the cause is known to be completely preventable, so no, I would not knowingly serve alcohol to a pregnant person. This woman actually severed part of the bartender's ear off with a bottle - that's pretty scary behavior, that she would want a drink right then and there badly enough to physically attack someone over it.

I probably would have asked the bar owner what HE wanted me to do. This way, if she sues later, it was HIS call.

If it was MY establishment, I would have refused to serve her. After all, a restaurateur or a bar owner has the right to refuse service to anyone they chose not to serve, right?

I think the "I had an occasional drink and now I have and FES child" woman is whitewashing. I don't buy that.

"I think if a pregnant woman is at a party and wants a glass of wine, have the glass of wine. Enjoy the glass of wine. If it's New Year's Eve, have a glass of champagne, you won't do harm to the baby," said Dr. Jacques Moritz, Director of Gynecology, St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital via ABC News

People are so nosy. Having a child doesn't make a woman's body public property-- it's between her and her doctor. No bartender should serve most people more than two drinks anyway, because of the extremely restrictive blood alcohol levels for DUI and public intoxication. I'd hope a bartender who refused alcohol to a sober patron would be fired, but we're puritains so I doubt that will come to pass.

I agree, I would have asked my supervisor to make the call if there was no policy already in place. Poor bartender!

On the other hand, if I saw a pregnant woman sitting in a loung drinking something, I would automatically assume it was non-alcoholic and not interfere.

Bingo. We've managed to survive as a race for millennia and throughout that time pregnant women have had the occaisional drink.
I have no desire to use the latest health findings to play god and overseer to anybody.

I'll watch out for my own family's welfare, and respect the freedom and automomy of other women.

After all, weren't they simply "protecting" families when they fired women who married back in the not so old days?
What careless person would want to be responsible for putting the success of her family at risk by taking her away from her proper role. After all the family is the backbone of America...so hiring a married woman could be seen as undermining the fabric of America!!!!
And so the hysteria begins, by thin dribbles to make an inroad.

Be damned to what she requires. Women have NO JUDGEMENT OF THEIR OWN. They need my superior judgement.

So where does the societally approved fascism end?

Let's try shunning, and the stocks next.

That said, the woman was obviously unbalanced, by hormones. or possibly by the patronising attitudes of a society that feels she has no rights as a functioning adult any longer.
Hmmm, wonder how consciencious that bartender will be when the public schools need more tax money...yeah, well. Easy to gain points as a person of superior conscience by pointing fingers and questioning the rightst of another...a LOT harder to reach for the old wallet thereby cutting down on some of our OWN freedom.

Agree completely, very patronizing. If it's reasonable for others to act to "protect her baybee," then I get to start chasing overweight people down the street with a tazer. Clearly they can't make the "right decision," and by jove, I'm going to make them healthier. Until it's out of her body it's all her, so I don't buy the "acting in the other's interest" angle.

That's all righteous sounding, but it doesn't address that alcohol harms the fetus. It's not a theoretical harming.

I am skeptical that all she drank was an occasional single drink--that shouldn't cause a problem for the fetus.

A functioning adult would not be recklessly endangering the life and welfare of a child, and the taxes the bartender will be paying will be going towards the special school of said disabled child. When you are selling a substance known to disable children and you serve it in large amounts to a pregnant woman, then you are serving it to that child. As a vendor, if I would not serve it to a child, then I would not serve it to a child in utero. Pregnancy is a temporary condition of housing another human being inside your body (which IS very SURREAL - I know), but the consequences of behavior during that time period can have a lasting effect on an innocent child who had absolutely no choice in the matter - but the mother does have the choice whether to get drunk or wait a few months before indulging in alcohol.

Well.............I'm not the youngest person here. When I was pregnant I did drink alcohol! With both kids.
It wasn't considered the WRONG thing to do then. Now............I watched how much I drank but........I did have a drink. Sorry.

Like someone else said..............LOTS of women drink while pregnant.
If it was today.............I'm sure I'd be a little more careful but...........what's a little glass of wine I ask you?

This piece on GMA has been totally challenged by the National Organization on Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. http://www.nofas.org/FASDMythsPerpetuatedb...iaCoverage.aspx

Over 40,000 babies are born each year affected with some form of fetal alcohol spectrum disorder and this is costing us $4 billion dollars per year. Alcohol is a known tetragenic substance (substance capable of causing irreversible birth defects). If you've ever taken care of a child with FAS or FAE you would never take the chance of disabling another perfectly healthy child through alcohol consumption during its neurological development.

Well I reread that article. The pregnant lady was 7 months along and wanted ANOTHER drink. She smashed a beer bottle AND a glass over the bartender's head & partially detached the bartender's ear.

Methinks she had already had at least one too many! AND....we really don't know how many drinks the pregnant lady had...she could have had quite a few!

Maybe this bartender had just come on board and the other bartender told her the lady had already had a few drinks?

Anyway, we really don't know the whole story, but the police saw fit to charge her with "reckless endangerment" and I am thinking that was because she was pregnant and drinking?

Some doctors tell you do NOT drink, and some say its ok to have a drink or two. If you have two drinks every day, doesn't that possibly cause problems for the baby?

I dunno....I didn't drink while I was pregnant.

I would say that anyone that attacks someone that way already has a BIG problem and drinking is only going to make it worse!

\Well now...............I didn't read the article. That's another story.

Two drinks a day is probably way too much to be drinking if you're pregnant. But I wouldn't get too crazy about a glass of champagne ONCE at a wedding, for the entire pregnancy. I admit it, I'm guilty--I had one glass of champagne when I was pregnant back in 1981.

The woman in the article was clearly in the wrong, in more ways than one!

I had diabetes with all 3 pregnancies - with the first one - it was diagnosed at 30 weeks, when they do the glucose tolerance test, which was already quite late in the game. Because it wasn't properly cared for early enough, we almost lost our first son during the delivery. Since we were forewarned, I had to follow a strict diabetic diet for the entire 9 months of both following pregnancies. That meant no sugar, no sweets, no doughnuts, no cookies, no cake, no white rice, no pasta, no bread, no corn, no peas, no jam, no juices, no sweet fruits like bananas or pineapples, no pizza, no alcohol, nothing made with white flour, no POTATOES!!! Do you know how hard it was to give up potatoes for 9 months? I had to prick my finger and take my blood 4 times a day and call in my blood glucose levels every day to a private nutritionist. If you knew how much I love SUGAR and POTATOES - the only reason I was able to follow the diabetic diet so carefully and keep my blood sugar under strict control was that I knew what it was like to almost lose a child, and because I knew I was doing it for another person who had no control over what I did, but it would affect them possibly quite deeply. Anyway, if I can give up all forms of sugar for 9 months, then not imbibing alcohol for 9 months is a "piece of cake" (which I would have loved to have eaten during my pregnancies).

Not to open a can of worms here, but if a woman has the right to kill her unborn baby, does it matter how she does it?

Well..................I agree with you Twitchley...............wholeheartedly.
I have to say that............while I PERSONALLY would never end another's life................especially my own child's.....................I wish that people were properly informed about the dangers of drinking while PG. If I had fully understood..............maybe I wouldn't have.

I wouldn't knowingly take anybody's life or harm it. I feel like that would come back to me. I'm not telling anybody else what to do. It's my personal moral belief. If I knowingly hurt another person.......to benefit myself..........I DO believe I'll pay for it in one way or another. JMHO
I DO NOT impose my beliefs on others.................

You make a very interesting point there...

Very interesting point Twitch , I am just going to mosey over to that fence over there and have myself a seat .....

Catie , I hate it when folks assume things and make judgemental remarks when they know nothing , sorry you had to endure that ( I say this as a fellow virgin cocktail whilst pregnant drinker).

If someone wants to kill themselves, do I have the right to refuse to buy them the gun and pull the trigger for them? If they want me to push them off a bridge, am I being self-righteous and judgmental if I refuse to push them? There is a difference between allowing someone to be self-destructive and enabling them.

QUOTE (Demetrue @ Feb 20 2008, 05:28 PM)

If someone wants to kill themselves, do I have the right to refuse to buy them the gun and pull the trigger for them? If they want me to push them off a bridge, am I being self-righteous and judgmental if I refuse to push them? There is a difference between allowing someone to be self-destructive and enabling them.

I agree. Hey, I had gestational diabetes too! They didn't find out til I was 7 months pregnant though. By that time, it was late!

They induced labor at 8 months, and its a good thing they did! I had a HUGE baby....for me anyway. I am small.....I only weighed about 105 before I was pregnant and about 145 or so when I gave birth. LOL

My cravings were limeade and flautas with beans & rice at least 5 days a week, (while I was working), til I dropped my load!

But does she have the right to maim her unborn baby and doom it to developmental disability?

Red herring-- FES isn't an abortion method. Drinking too much damages fetal development and raises the risk of miscarriage, but it is not a reliable way to induce a miscarriage.

The "drinking is fine in extreme moderation" recommendation has indeed been challenged, but not with research data. The ABC story makes that clear-- the doctors challenging it say they can't specify an acceptable limit based on studies, so they have opted to recommend none. Other doctors disagree.

MDs aren't infallable, but they're infinitely more equipped to make a recommendation on this topic than any person without one. There's no statistical significance in anecdotes or personal experiences. The bartender had every right to cut off a rowdy customer, but we who wear neurotoxic compounds and synthetic hormones on a daily basis with no regard for who it harms are in no position to criticize a pregnant woman who drinks occasionally with the blessing of her doctor.

If I am a bartender, yes. If it's in a private setting, I would plainly tell her that I think it's a bad idea and then allow her to make her decision. First, I don't know if she's going to have a half glass of wine and call it quits, which isn't great but it's also a far cry from getting loaded. Secondly, I cannot police the universe - and believe me, I tend to lean to the side of being egalitarian so that's something that I've had to teach myself to abide by. The fact is, as unpalatable as it may be...that it's her choice.

Refuse to carry it? I respect that decision.

Commit to carrying it and then maim it in the womb? I got no respect and I will intervene if I can.

And it becomes a public health issue.

As I read that story, the moral dilemma for me is not whether the mother-to-be should drink or not. It is whether I, in the shoes of the bartender, choose to be complicit in her drinking.

This brings to mind a dilemma in the UK. Pakistani immigrants are 3% of the population yet their children account for 30% of the kids with birth defects due to their custom of inbreeding, i.e. marrying first cousins. It's an even bigger problem in Pakistan, as you can imagine. This tragedy is obviously preventable but no one wants to get involved in the cultural implications. However, UK taxpayers are picking up the tab for an already badly strained national health service.

The Times of London article about Pakistani birth defects

Ditto. I find this type of monitoring of pregnant women outrageous.

The bartenders have the right to refuse another drink to an already drunk person, that woman's awful behavior looks like she had too much to drink already.

That's the problem I see with trying to generalize a specific incident into a hypothetical question - I'm not a bartender, will probably never be in that situation - this particular woman was obviously drunk or had some anger management issues, who knows - and a bar has the right not to serve someone alcohol, especially IF they think they could get sued or held responsible later for the consequences. So the question is really about issues of free will and boundaries and where do you draw the line. Different people draw it at different places, though I am sure that all of us support free will within reason. For me, having an alcoholic grandfather makes me draw the line closer to home - I can't in good conscience participate in helping someone do something that I feel could be abusive to their body or someone else, but that does NOT mean I support legislation that would monitor people and stop them from doing whatever they want as adults in private. And being concerned that someone is hurting themselves or others is not an act of condemnation of that person - there is such a thing as tough love where you don't enable someone to go on destroying themselves and you also don't bail them out of accepting the consequences of their behavior if they choose to continue down a destructive path.

Fetal alcohol syndrome is a developmental disorder, and most of its characteristic findings are associated with first trimester development of the fetus. I am NOT endorsing frequent or heavy alcohol use in pregnancy, but I have never been able to find a single case report of one drink having any deleterious health effect on a baby in the third trimester, which is the time a woman is most likely to be visibly pregnant. I am open to any reference which would refute that. Unfortunately the greatest risk is in the first trimester, when a woman may not even realize herself that she is pregnant.

I tend to agree Julia in that I doubt the mother of the FAS child just had an occasional drink to relax. I'd bet the alcohol usage was alot more pervasive to bring about measurable FAS in that child. I think the exposure has to be more consistent.

My birthmother did not want to be pregnant with me. She drank and even intentionally ingested a back pain medication that is supposed to abort the pregnancy. I believe she said it was called...bromoquinine...something like that? Clearly I have all of my faculties. The mother of my best girlfriend also drank socially when pregnant with her and her intellect is completely intact. I could probably drum up a laundry list of other personal examples. So episodic or light consumption of alchohol dooms children to disability? I don't think so. Regular heaving drinking does, sure, and that is what the campaign against FAS is aimed at.

Caffeine has been proven to effect the fetus as well. Are we going to get this presumptive and black-and-white with the pregnant gal at Starbucks as well?

Back in the stone-age when I was pregnant many of us had a drink or two. Our children all seem to be fine.

I personally think that this bartender was cutting off an over drinker who happened to be pregnant.

The problem with a stranger trying to police a pregnant woman is that she just might not be pregnant ! I have seen people assume that a woman with a big belly was pregnant when they were just fat there . Very embarassing for all parties.

Well, "fine" is a relative term -- I mean, I wonder about the rise of ADHD and other learning disabilities.

Did you guys see this article? A waiter spotted someone drugging his date's drink, stopped it and called the cops. (Whew.)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/21/...tr=HOME_3855974

I've wondered about ADHD as well. An educator who is a client of mine tells me that they have done some pretty extensive studies linking it to overexposure to television at a very early age...toddler and earlier. It has to do with the way the synaptic connections and "pruning" is happening differently with that overstimulation with the flashing images. So...maybe...

So you would think it would have been more prevelent years ago and be declining as more pregnant women abstain from alcohol.

That's a good theory, too.

I'll bet, as this story gets out, that other women he's dated will have their own stories to tell. It was only valium, thank God. Creep!

[quote name='Irinadax' date='Feb 20 2008, 03:22 PM' post='343390']
I think it depends greatly on whether she was already intoxicated or not and what she was ordering, b/c in France and maybe other parts of Europe, it's considered acceptable for women after their first trimester to drink red wine - so alot of it has to do with culture too. In America I think it's safe to say it is definately not considered acceptable in any form.

I don't know what's considered to be acceptable now, but when I was pregnant with my children (26 years ago with my first), my ob/gyn told me that a glass of wine would be fine. I didn't indulge, since I normally don't drink anyway, but I think moderation and common sense is crucial in this type of case.I'd much rather see a woman drinking a glass of wine (one glass) than smoking cigarettes, and I've seen plenty of that.

After the baby is born...well, at that point, a glass of wine at dinner is sometimes a real nice thing to have!!