Anyone care to speculate what this means to etailers that use ebay? What about selling used bottles of perfume on ebay (which I do from time to time)?

http://www.wwd.com/issue/article/126124?src=breakingnews

Whoa, Nellie! The control freaks are at it again!

How can they tell if it is counterfeit or not? Ebay is not responsible for that, but the seller. OTOH, don't we each have a right to sell (or give away) what we no longer want if we are the lawful owner? Does the designer retain ownership of what s/he sells? Will they go against resale shops who sell designer gowns? Or Goodwill? just because this is the Internet, the principle shouldn't be different. I don't go for designer name purses anyway, but if I did, I would surely boycott.

"Jezuz, why don't they just ask them to stop selling stuff period then..."

"Like why bother now?" If one can't get a good deal on a designer item then, "well then just forget it then"

"SCREW YOU LVHM!!!! You're the Anti-Christ!!!!"

IMHO, LVMH would never have gotten the ruling were it not for the rampant counterfeiting. The distribution issue was probably bundled with the counterfeiting issue so that ebay would have zero wiggle room for listing or de-listing those goods.

Do you have to make sense, T.

I like what I said better! LOL!!!!!!!! Only the Screw part though, LOL!!!

I'd agree with you, Thomas. They are picking on eBay because they are the biggest target.

The thing that annoys me is the hypocrisy of LVMH. They use the grey market frequently (as do most other large perfumery firms) to manage and balance their inventory. They will dump large lots of perfumes onto middle eastern or asian markets - primarily when changes to the product packaging are made. This is why you see so many Creed bottles with middle eastern writing, for instance.

Ugh.

Teddius

"against eBay for allowing the sale of counterfeit goods" WTF? It is not ebay who is selling them, it's people who are selling them! How can someone write something like that?

Don't get me wrong, I have counterfeit stuff. But they should solve the problem by some other way. This means that I cannot sell my Dior perfume on ebay if I don't wear it any more?! Blah.

This judgment was rendered by a French court. Do you think it will apply in North America or on other continents beside Europe?

Well, this looks to be the kind of short-sightedness that you tend to get with larger firms. They do business with some people when it serves their purposes, and then conveniently ignore them when conditions warrant. But they'll find other ways to make this work out for them, probably by quietly approving some of their grey market distribution channels. The thing is: it's up to LVMH to decide which is approved or not, and bring action accordingly. The French authorities aren't going to check every shop to see if they have proper LVMH accreditation.



iirc, eBay has been farily lax in allowing obvious counterfeiters to peddle their wares, and in allowing listings that claim authenticity. For instance - Hermes ties from Hong Kong. There is a just-next-to-zero chance you will find a legit Hermes tie from an HK seller. Not that you'd know that, judging from all the claims of authenticity from each seller (with private feedback). BTW - IMHO, private feedback - is there a valid use for that at all, outside of hiding a propensity for fraud???



Doubtful. Differences between the laws notwithstanding, LVMH is more important to the French economy than to North America. The French courts are more likely to side with the local boys, since it directly harms French business. Once again, just MHO.

eBay has profited mightily from the sale of counterfeit goods on its venue. It's not a disinterested bystander. Moreover, its policing has been lax; it was mostly content to look the other way and rake in fees while paying lip service to enforcing its rules against selling counterfeit items.

Blah, blah, blah, blah...

I wonder if this will apply to vintage goods sold as collector's items? If it does, then adios to vintage Mitsouko, Diorling, Miss Dior, etc, etc...

For some reason I am reminded of that auction of the Guerlain Cuir de Russie extrait that went for - what - four figures?

Well, I have to say, selfishly, that I'm jolly glad I've been stocking up on my vintage Guerlains on ebay recently - sounds like I've just done it at the right time. Goodness knows how this will be policed, though, in future.

It's precisely this sort of thing that keeps me on my toes, credit card at the ready. Any news of reformulation, and I'm off to buy old stock. You'd think that by now I'd no longer be at the whims of scarcity and market demands, but I'm still kind of weak that way.

If they tried to stop individuals from selling vintage perfume, there might be room for a lawsuit there against the companies (for those who would find it worth it to try). Saying you can't sell some 1920 Mitsouko is like General Motors saying you can't sell an antique GM car on the secondary market or 20th Century Fox saying you can't sell your old Darth Vader doll at a garage sale. It would be an interesting battle.

Exactly what I thought.

LOL!!!



Good point. It will interesting to see how this plays out on the American market.

Thanks for all your replies:-) Linda

[quote name='FiveoaksBouquet' post='381691' date='Jun 30 2008, 01:26 PM']This judgment was rendered by a French court. Do you think it will apply in North America or on other continents beside Europe?[/quote]


Thomas, your HO, is somewhat comforting to those of us in North America. Ebay is one of my major perfume buying sources. I have bought well over 50 bottles of perfume on Ebay and have only had a couple of either counterfeit or just off fragrances. One of my favorite vintage perfume sellers is in Japan. This person is above and beyond honest and her fragrances are well kept and fresh. I would hate to see people like this penalized out of what strikes me as soulless avarice.

feeling somewhat let down and disappointed by yet another set of antics from LVMH, there's a part of me that wants to walk away from my beloved perfume houses in favor of the independent ones. I have to keep reminding myself that Edmond Roudnitska, the Guerlain clan and their great compositions have nothing to do with LVMH. Somehow the bad taste in my mouth and a tainted feeling persist.

This is an interesting turn of events isn't it? A bit of the old "what goes around comes around?"

Remember eBay forced Perfumebay to change their name because of the "bay" portion of their name?

I am hoping that this will make eBay start taking action against all the people who are selling counterfeit perfumes. So many people complain about them, and eBay does nothing.

Perhaps when it starts costing eBay, the way it costs the poor people who have been scammed by eBay sellers, they might start making some changes.

Yes, I agree, why should people be allowed to have PRIVATE feedback?

And why doesn't eBay allow a page so that people can view ONLY the negative feedback a seller has? One has to go through pages of feedback to see the negative stuff.

I for one would much rather just click on a page that says NEGATIVE FEEDBACK so I can read it all!

I hope this doesn't affect the good sellers, and starts affecting the BAD sellers!

And who in the heck is LMVH?

Ginny, toolhaus.org lets you view negative/neutral feedback only. It's indispensable.

LVMH stands for Louis Vuitton Moët Hennessy, the luxury goods conglomerate, purveyor of the eponymous purses and champagne as well as Guerlain perfumes.

Scents, more on LVMH:

http://www.answers.com/topic/lvmh-mo-t-hen...-sa?cat=biz-fin

Thank you ladies. One word: HMPH! Shame on you LVMH AND eBay!

Must make note to my self....I LOVE to see all the negatives....they are by far more important!

I hate to say this, but eBay is kind of over a barrel on the counterfeit issue. They can't really keep up with all the new sellers and cross-check them with older sellers who have proven to be frauds. Even then, negative feedback won't hold up as proof of fraud, all it takes is a few bad sellers and a lawyer to put eBay in a bind.

Even the feedback system itself is suspect as most buyers are reluctant to leave bad feedback for a seller since it a) is unpleasant and b)invites reciprocity.

Yes, eBay is held accountable, but eBay's real recourse is to pursue the sellers who seldom have anything liquid at stake or available to recover.

This far ebay hasn't shown much interest in counterfeit products. Someone was selling (on ebay.de) dozens of bottles of one of the Escada Summer Editions in a bottle that had never been released - I knew it was a fraud. I reported them to ebay and nothing happened. They manufacture counterfeit perfumes in Poland and ebay does absolutely nothing even when it is 100% obvious. I know someone who had reported ebay counterfeit Viagra - the one that was potentially lethal because it contained chloroquinine and not a trace of the chemical it was supposed to be made of. Ebay did not react. Et cetera, ad infinitum...

Ebay lets sellers scam buyers and do nothing - maybe they'll have to change their policy if big companies press them? Maybe not.

The feedback rules have changed so that sellers can no longer leave negative feedback for buyers, thereby removing the problem of retaliatory negative feedback. (Exactly what recourse sellers have against bad buyers, I'm unsure, but I'll bet Isabellabird knows.)

I know it's a legal quagmire, but eBay's efforts have been entirely inadequate. Just as one example, when they opened eBay in China (including no listing fees!), just what exactly did they think would happen? I imagine they're shocked, shocked that all those Hong Kong (free) listings are of counterfeit goods. Moreover, they continue to change the playing field so that it's harder and harder for the small customer to protect himself.

I shed no tears for LVMH, either. However, I think the principle of trademark and copyright protection is of critical importance to our society and yet people seem happy enough to violate it on a casual basis. Buying purses at purse parties, posting articles from another source, and so forth. It's true that the damage from an individual action is negligible, but collectively it's a far different story.



LOL, you beat me to the feedback comment! Little recourse, in fact. A seller can leave a false positive, ie, negative comments in a "positive" feedback, but who's going to see it unless it's on top? Three UIDs and a buyer will get booted, but that's about it.

Realistically, however, negative feedback for a buyer never hurt them much anyway, unless they were so foolish as to buy and sell on the same account. Unless a bidder had feedback in the minus numbers, they couldn't be screeened. Bidders can be blocked individually, but that's usually only possible after the fact, unless the seller had suspect communication before an auction ended.

I'm still not sure how any court can tell me I can't sell something I own, whether on eBay or out of my garage. Or is that not what the LMVH ruling does?

Well, Twitch, to simplify things a bit: French is a notoriously difficult language to translate into English unless you happen to actually speak both languages, and to add to the difficulty - French law is so SO different from US laws, that where we in the US have a rather laissez-faire (whatever that means) attitude towards commerce and an expectation that efficient markets will sort themselves out, French courts tend to take a more proactive and protective attitude towards their wards. Add to this the well-known fact that France is a socialist state, and therefore all goods belong to the state of France, so therefore you can't sell anything, but that's okay because you've never really bought or owned anything anyway, and with that the picture becomes clearer.

Hope this helps.

Uh... Thomas ? French is a socialist state ? I suppose you were just being ironic.

There is a socialist *party*, which is the opposition party currently, and socialist in name only, but France has never been in any way socialist, even under the socialist party governments, and I can assure you that the state does not own everything, though it is the majority shareholder in many public infrastructures, which kind of ensures they keep on serving the public rather than just cutting costs to make more profits. The health services are state-run and funded: that means that however poor you are, you get health care. Not a bad thing, I'd say.
I'm a bit aghast if this is the perception that some Americans have of my adopted country...

Laughter would have been nice, or at least a chuckle. That was my intention.

I even used a smiley at the bottom.

For the record, I do know better re: French democracy and healthcare and labor laws, etc. And no, this is not the common perception as far as I know. No reason to be aghast.

I couldn't see the entire article (not a paid WWD-web user). Did it ever specify which goods in particular were most at issue? I know knock-off handbags has been an annoyance to Hermes and LVMH. Does it specifically mention fragrances?

Yahoo - LVMH - eBay

Try this instead.

I think the intent of the lawsuit and the subsequent decision is to stop E-Bay from facilitating the massive sales of counterfeit goods. Any time I see the seller's base is in Asia, I know the goods are fake, and probably low quality as well. Some sellers of counterfeits -especially handbags, belts, sunglases and watches- already have set up their own websites which pop up on Google when one types in the brandnames of certain products. What those sites don't have is the ease of use for customers, ratings of sellers, and the trust factor which E-Bay once had and has lately been squandering in their greed.

I doubt the sales of vintage fragrances will be significantly effected. BUT lately I have noticed a trend on E-Bay which will effect us buyers of vintage fragrances. Professional antique sellers are now competing against us regulars to buy vintage fragrances, especially the full bottles in good condition, often including boxes. They pay more than one would think they would, and then resell the fragrances on E-Bay at a significant mark-ups.

I have no doubt that's happening, bt at the same time I find myself wondering when this particular bubble will burst. Every so often I see a run-up in prices on a particular good - English shirts, razors, perfumes, what-have-you - and I start getting outbid on these auctions. I wander away for a while, and when I start peering in again the prices have fallen back as the market dried up and wouldn't support the higher prices.

Certainly, there's an upward trend just as there is for everything, but there are always those who test the market to see where the ceiling is, and someone gets left holding the bag trying to move overpriced merchandise. It's just a question of when.

QUOTE

Professional antique sellers are now competing against us regulars to buy vintage fragrances, especially the full bottles in good condition, often including boxes. They pay more than one would think they would, and then resell the fragrances on E-Bay at a significant mark-ups

Well I sure do wish they would have bid on my THE ROSE fragrance! Where *are* they when I want them around to buy up something I am selling??? LOL

I stand corrected. I didn't see the smiley! I'm not usually touchy about this (I'm not even French), so blame the heat that's finally settled on Paris, and my annoyance with LVMH!

Between LVMH and the Paris heat, that's plenty to get riled about!

right , so annoyance with LVMH AND EBay , plus the heat and this whole thing becomes two angry cats in a bag sorta fight

Don't worry, Twitch. In the U.S., there is a long legal precedent protecting the rights of private property owners - including our right to resell items we lawfully own. This has been challenged lately by the RIAA and music companies, who are trying to prevent customers from reselling their CDs and DVDs. Their claim is that the consumer owns only the plastic disc, not the musical/video content. I don't think that these luxury goods companies could make this same claim about fragrances in U.S. courts.

Teddius
(not a lawyer, just a geek)

Oh, puh-leeze. Let us pray that they do not prevail in this ridiculous endeavor.

Teddius, when they reduce the cost of the DVD to the roughly $1.00 cost of a plastic disc, it might be conceivable to believe them. When people complain about the prices of DVDs, the companies claim it's the cost of producing the music that causes the high price. Then they turn around and want it both ways by saying once you have the disk you didn't buy the music? Hunh?

Just venting... I am so sick and tired of ebay! Why do I even bother anymore??

I had a look at perfumes whose sellers were in Poland. For example, there were three sellers who had been around just for 12-14 days. During that time, they had gathered 60-70 positive feedbacks! The feedbacks came either from sellers whose feedback was private or the deals had been for coins or phone cards, all costing approx. 1.99 Polish Zlotys. Every one of them was selling just only one bottle of perfume, Dior Dune. Same thing with another Dior perfume... When there is time to give negative feedback, these scammers have been long gone.

Would you buy anything from them? Do you think that ebay would do something? No, they won't. They are happy to collect their fees and they could not care less about people who buy a fake perfume / items. Ebay happily supports people who professionally manufacture counterfeit articles.

The big tug-of-war that will take years to resolve (if ever) surrounds who has the duty to verify an article's provenance.

Let's say I am an honest seller (work with me here!). I list, say, a Fendi briefcase for a decent starting price and note that I got it secondhand but it looks fine. No mis-representation here, and more importantly, nothing easily verified or disproven. Caveat Emptor, judge for yourself.

Let's say I list the same briefcase and say I bought it from the Beverly Hills Fendi boutique. This lends authenticity to the product, without being definitive - it comes down to whether you trust my claim or not. Someone, however, is likely willing to pay more for the second briefcase than for the first.

But - who would be the one to authenticate the briefcase? Ebay makes the claim that they do not have the means to verify authenticity of anything, and that Fendi would be the proper arbiter of authenticity. Fendi never authorized eBay as a distribution channel, so they'll be damned before they allocate resources to scour eBay for fake Fendi bags, so if eBay hosts, Fendi would argue that eBay would be responsible for any fraud that their sites hosted/facilitated.

What will be interesting is how each country allocates this reponsibility between manufacturer and eBay.

I see fake Dooney & Burke All Weather Leather bags all the time at yard sales. Anybody who has seen real ones would know they are fakes. I wonder where they are all coming from. I mean they have the logo and everything. Not to be confused with wannabe bags that imitate the logo and design. These are counterfeits but they would not fool anybody who knows the real thing. They are not even leather.

I was reading Kovel's blog on antiques and came across reference to this lawsuit. It says that (1) ebay is appealing and (2) in the U.S. Tiffany's is suing ebay as well for the same thing and the case is pending. The Kovels ask if the result of the suits in Europe will sober ebay to dealing with the counterfeit problem on ebay USA. Here's the link:

http://kovels.blogspot.com/2008/07/ebay-fined-in-europe.html

Oh, for HEAVEN'S SAKE. It's one thing to say people can't reproduce CDs and DVDs; it's another to say they can't sell them.

So used book stores would be forced to shut down, because we just own the paper and ink, not the content of the book. IDJITS. I can't imagine that one holding up, thankfully.

This is showing on the homepage of eBay UK:

"A letter from eBay's Douglas McCallum regarding our fight against counterfeits

Dear Customer,

I’m sure you will have read media reports over the past few days concerning a French court ruling in a lawsuit against eBay.

We want you, our customers, to know and trust how much we do behind the scenes to stop counterfeits from ever making their way onto our sites. It’s not just about money but we do invest millions every year in keeping our site free of counterfeits. In 2007, across all eBay sites around the world, we removed over 2 million potentially counterfeit listings, and we suspended over 50,000 sellers whom we believed may have been attempting to sell fake goods.

Indeed, our efforts to remove counterfeits from our site – often before anyone is able to see them, let alone buy them – are recognised by thousands of manufacturers who we successfully work with to combat counterfeiters.

While recognising the importance of fighting counterfeits, we do not agree with overly broad attempts to protect uncompetitive commercial practices of authentic items at the expense of consumer choice, which threatens the livelihood of our law-abiding sellers and the ability of our buyers to get great deals.

Overzealous implementation of restrictive sales practices are anti-competitive and give you, our buyers and sellers a bad deal. This is recognised by European Union policy-makers who are seeking to create a better framework for online sales to promote e-commerce in Europe. We support a free and fair market in Europe and the benefits this will bring for you.

We will continue to fight against counterfeits but we will not accept outdated attempts to restrict unfairly the Internet to the detriment of our community. We will continue to fight for consumer value through e-commerce. We are appealing the ruling in France.

Douglas S. McCallum

Senior Vice President, eBay Marketplaces, Europe"

Nutmeg, this is getting very interesting! Thaks for posting that letter.

Off topic here, but Karin, I luuuuuv your avatar!!

As for high-end purses, I don't indulge in them (I have a hard enough time affording my perfume habit, lol! )