These are a few notes that I have been wondering about for a while and I'm hoping some of you can help me understand their distinct characters a little better. Besides all the resins, which I am hopelessly unable to distinguish (labdanum, galbadnum, opoponax, benzoin, etc.) I have no idea what these three notes really are.

1. Lotus: Is this the supposed to be an approximation of the scent of the flowers, or is it a root/rhizome situation like orris? I get the feeling that it is a rather sweet floral note, and can sometimes be cloying?

2. Ciste: This one really confuses me. Does it come from the same plant that grows all around beaches here in New England, the roses with the pale magenta or white flowers that smell very faintly? I've only seen it referred to as a Mediterranean plant though, and it is the resin from it's bark, correct? Is that labdanum (evidenced by the Le Labo name change for it's Ciste scent)? Does the plant that grows in America have any perfumery value?

3. Orchid: I've never experienced an orchid in real life with a very strong scent, so I don't have much to compare it to pragmatically. I've heard it's also sweet.

No's 1 and 3 are prominently used in many Black Phoenix Alchemy Lab products, so I am trying to figure out what they smell like before I try some imps. (In August and September, all I can think about is Halloween, my favorite holiday, and so rather than fixating on Martha Stewart's decorating ideas this year, I'm going the BPAL route.)

Thanks, I know you all will enlighten me!

Nichie, I really look forward to the comments on your thread. There are so many people here who are good at differentiating and describing notes!

I don't know what actual lotus smells like but in a workplace looooonnnng ago, a colleague wore Yardley's Lotus and I loved that scent! I had some too but for some reason at the time I enjoyed smelling it on its own rather than wearing it. I'd like to know if real lotus smells like that scent. So far, of any perfumes that claim to have a lotus note (can't remember which offhand), I haven't smelled one redolent of the Yardley's.

With regard to orchid, the vanilla pod comes from an orchid plant but the flowers and the pod smell very different, based upon so-called orchid scents I have smelled. Roger & Gallet has or used to have a soap called Orchidée. I actually have some but it's a smell that when I smell it, I do not have an Aha! moment saying so that's what orchid smells like. No idea why it doesn't concretize in my olfactory sense. By the way, I think R&G has a soap & bath line called Lotus Bleu but my nose can't get a handle on that scent either.

Ciste, no clue. But I'll bet if I smelled some cold, I'd recognize it from somewhere else.

Coming to think of it, judging from my own difficulty in pinpointing these scents, I think the notes you're questioning are ones that may not be easy to decipher.

Bump for info...

Anyone?

Hi, C'est Nichist. Great thread -- I look forward to reading the responses.

My experience with lotus is via a perfume oil I bought at Whole Foods by "Nemat." I've since figured out that the Nemat oils are probably full of synthetics. They also make an "Arabian wood" that is clearly a synthetic oud, and also carry the ever-popular (in Indian) Majmua base. Their lotus is very floral, sweet, and cloying, as you describe.

I believe "ciste" would be cistus labdanum. Helg has a wonderful article on Labdanum on perfumeshrine here:

http://perfumeshrine.blogspot.com/2007/10/...t-material.html

Labdanum apparently comes from Cistus ladaniferus (western Mediterranean) and Cistus creticus (eastern Mediterranean), but some members of the wider Cistaceae (rock-rose) family can be found in North America. Wikipedia has some photos of different species here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockrose

With respect to orchid, I have no idea what it is supposed to smell like. I've been curious about the d/c'd L'Artisan Orchidée Blanche. I don't know if "orchid" is a fantasty-note or not.

The lotus plant does yield perfume material but it's made from the whole plant not the flower and does not smell like the flower. It has more of an earthy smell. So the lotus note that purports to smell like the flower is synthetic. (Lotus is a very useful plant. Every part of the plant can be eaten and also used for something. The leaf can even be used as an umbrella in an emergency!)

The lotus in my pond is bloomimg now and I also still have the memory of the scent of the lotus pond I walked by every day in China. The scent is lightly sweet but ethereal, not intoxicating. It is a scent that floats.


Orchid is also a synthetic fantasy note. There are many types of orchids and the scented ones are all different. Some species even smell different depending on the time of the day. Often they mimic other scents like jasmine, lemon, coffee, chocolate, cinnamon or even rotting meat. But none of them yield an essential oil from the flower. Vanilla is produced from the seed pod of the vanilla orchid not from the flower. So the listing of 'orchid' in the notes is intended to evoke an imaginary olfactory sense of an archetypal 'orchid'.

You have received very good answers on lotus and orchid!

More information on Labdanum.
And a whole site devoted to the eastern Med variety which is superior (hand-picked instead of machine-produced).
The English needs a bit combing through admittedly, but great info.

And here is a bit of travel thoughts on orchids and their smell.
There are many varieties which smell very different from one another and indeed as Katy stated the effect in fragrances is re-created (hence my reminiscing of a specific species in Ange ou Demon mentioned).

There are three varieties of lotus - pink, white and blue. The flowers are distilled by solvent extraction to create an absolute. Most of the lotus absolutes are very expensive (the pink one is cheaper). They have slight differences but are overall very similar to one another. They hardly resemble the fresh flower but are very beautiful when diluted. They have a sweet, floral, dense and slightly powdery and bitter-sweet scent.


No, this is not the same rockrose species. Ciste/cistus used in perfumery is the species Cistus ladaniferus. It is the not the flowers that are used (they have very little fragrance. The branches and leaves are covered with a resin that is fragrant. Either the branches are boiled in water to separate the resin and later on distill an absolute (which are called Labdanum Resin or Labdanum Absolute respectively); or the entire plant - branches and leaves covered with the resin - are steam distilled to produce what is labeled as "Cistus" or "Cistus Essential Oil".


Orchids are very versatile and yes there are some that have smell and very intense one. You may not find them in the flower shop though... Aside from Vanilla (which is an orchid) there is no "real" orchid essential oil or absolute. Orchid in perfumery usually refers to a fantasy floral note - a blend of various essences and/or aromachemicals that create the impression of an exotic, imaginary or real orchid flower. Some orchid notes could be very heady and floral, others might be more sweet or spicy but the common theme would be a floral element at least to a certain degree.


Judging by the prices of the BPA lines, and the ones that I stumbled upon in recent years - this line mostly uses fragrance oils and some essential oils. I doubt they will be using the real lotus absolute in their blends as even pink lotus absolute is quite costly. Labdanum is more affordable and they might be using it. As for the orchid - this would be a fragrance oil I imagine, with a floral aroma that would be difficult to predict - because as I said orchid could be many things.

Ayala, thank you very very much--as always, incredibly informative.

Ayala said it all really! I just wanted to add that I have Aftelier 'Orchid' in solid perfume form. I absolutely love it. Because her products are only made form natural essences and as far as I know there isn't a natural 'orchid flower' essence, she has created one using a combination of naturals. Aftelier's 'Orchid' is an ethereal scent, unlike anything I have smelled before and that's is one of the reasons I like it so much. It's a really pure and gentle scent, floral, delicate and mysterious. It's distinctive and unforgettable. Can I find the right words though?...a translucent dry delicate floral with a soft powdery finish. Saying that I have never smelled Orchid flowers for real, for some reason I think they maybe smell a bit like violets.

I want to add something to the discussion of lotus. The name lotus is often used colloquially to refer to plants that are botanically different and this adds to the confusion over whether 'lotus' in a list of perfume notes refers to a natural essence or to a fantasy note that imagines some abstract idea of a 'lotus' flower.


The plants called blue lotus and pink lotus are totally different. Blue lotus is actually a water lily, Nymphaea caerula, the famous intense blue-coloured flowers depicted in ancient Egyptian art and probably the same lotus of the "Lotus Eaters" that led Odyesseus' men astray on the shores of North Africa in The Odyssey. (The Blue Lotus contains some alkilines that are hallucinogenic- specifically nucifrene)


But the pink lotus (with some variant colouring of white, but not blue) is botanically different - a different genus altogether called Nelumba nucifera ( also has nucifrene but in lesser quantities) and this is the true lotus - with the aerial leaves and the seed pod and the edible roots that look like Swiss cheese and taste sweet. The stamens are used to flavour teas. It is the lotus that is special in Indian and Chinese iconography and literature. Blue lotus and pink lotus both have a long history in symbolism and in their pragmatic uses and they are often used interchangeably or confused with each other. To add to the confusion, there is another lotus in the genus Nelumbo called Nelumbo lutea which is the North American variety and this lotus is often called the white lotus (although lutea refers to its yellowy tinge)


The pink lotus and the blue lotus flowers smell completely different in their natural state. Blue lotus has a more intense heady scent but the scent of pink lotus is light and airy. The essential oils don't smell like the flowers the way the essential oils of jasmine, rose, and tuberose smell like their respective flowers.

Just an added fact. There is an interesting article in this month's Scientific American which refers to the pink lotus' unique characetristic of shedding all dirt from the surface of the leaves and how this science has been applied in industry.

Wow! very interesting facts, thank you very very much for sharing. I'd love to see that article, is there an online version...off to have a google