Oh, criticize away, god knows there's plenty of grounds for criticism all around, but that doesn't stop the fact that I find it odd to hear this criticism emanating from a person whose national currency has not suffered such rapid depreciation. The concerns expressed by the Americans on the board can be too easily misinterpreted by those who are not running up against the same set of negatives.

BTW: I used to order goods from the UK on a semi-regular basis, but stopped in the last year as the value of the dollar had sunk so low against the British pound that it became a little ridiculous. I doubt that British (or even Euro) citizens are facing the same problem when ordering from the U.S.

Wait a sec -- wasn't one of your points of pride upthread is that, no matter what anybody says about us, we Americans can take criticism? What happened to that? I meant to comment on that single point earlier, but got busy.

And, sorry, anyway you look at Mimiboo's post, it's not nearly as offensive as telling someone else to STFU, or to "swallow a big glass of STFU.'" And it's personal, and probably violates the TOUs -- I don't think we should talk that way to each other.

Actually no, what I said was that no matter what Americans do, we get criticized.

It's never easy to listen to outsiders criticize us. But I'm fairly certain we Americans have lectured Europeans on how to best run their countries and economies. No doubt we've earned some payback.

Overall, I'd say we Americans like to have it both ways. We don't want to pay much in taxes but we want the best government services. Big government is bad but then we scream bloody murder when there is no government to take care of things after a natural disaster such as Katrina. Government should get off our backs but where were the SEC and Fed when this whole economic mess was going down and why weren't they trying to prevent this. I don't have enough money to buy even a mud hut but I will buy a big house in the outer suburbs with 0% down.

Now, ALL of us are going to pay for this! And for those of you who have your panties in a twist about mimiboo's and allure's comments, thanks to globalization, even the Europeans will have to pay for this.

*giggle*

I mean, HOW DARE YOU!

It just gets really old. Europeans considering themselves so far advanced and being so arrogant as to come on a forum with mostly Americans and bad-mouth their country and their politics. I would not ever do the same if I were on a forum with mostly or many Europeans. It astounds me why we're supposed to just sit here with our teeth in our mouths and listen to the rudeness over and over again and just assume that people from other countries should feel it their right to accuse us of whatever they please in any context, even a perfume board. It's enough. Especially on this board where Europeans' generalizations about Americans, howsoever unflattering and inflammatory, are always left to stand and there is no recourse and no one to suggest they take it elsewhere. I'm sick of the disrespect. I repeat, I would never do such a thing to you. I'm tired of having it done to me and being expected to not only sit and listen to it, but actually entertain it.

P.S. if Europeans do end up paying for it, do we get to ask them why they tolerated such a thing, why they let it happen, and suggest that it is all their faults because they live wrong, etc.? Would we? No. This is my point.

Thanks for the clarification, Mary -- I thought you were saying something else.

But seriously, no one is really suggesting that people should not be free to criticize or question people from other countries unless we have been there, right? That's what matchgirl appears to be saying -- that if you don't live here, you can't possibly have a legitimate opinion, quesition or -- yes -- criticism. (Even if we could accept this proposition, I'd like to point out that mimiboo has spent time here).

And yes, as sgupta points out so well above, don't dish it out if you can't take it. We are just having a discussion, that's all -- no need to take these kinds of things personally.

There are a lot of people around the world who gloat whenever bad things happen in the US. It happened with 911, University of Virginia shootings, etc. Not surprising to me at all that there are people who feel that way about our situation. 

She didn't say Americans were fat -- she said that, in American restaurants, the portions are huge, and everyone takes food home in doggie bags. That's a completely neutral, and very accurate, description of waste and excess, which was the original topic of this thread (assuming that: a) the leftovers actually get eaten; and that if you have food left over that you can't finish, the portion was too big, i.e., a waste).

Well, how popular are sub-prime mortgages in Europe? Are Europeans swimming in credit card debt? Are they exporting their garbage to poor third-world countries? If yes to any, then I'd say they have totally earned the discomfort of being criticized by Americans and others on how they live.

No, they haven't. You don't kick a feller when he's down, even if it's his own fault that he fell.

Besides the fact that there is also poverty in America. I guess you don't see that from airports when you're jet-setting around. But there are children who go to sleep hungry in America and people whose credit isn't even sub-prime, who will never ever own even a condo and can barely rent an apartment. We're not all fat and happy and wasteful and greedy.

3 week business excursions to NYC is far from living here. My objections to being criticized by an outsider are visceral. "Mortifying" portions? The sanctimonious superiority of this is what grates. Can I go to a Brit site
and bash the overall lack of dentistry? Rude, inconsiderate and impolite isn't it. Blanket coverage isn't it.

I am 100% sincere when I say this -- I am really interested in why people are taking these criticisms so personally. And this thread illustrates why it's not always a good idea to give vent to our "visceral" reactions -- it gets ugly and personal. Sometimes its better to keep our viscera inside where no one else has to look at them.

If you read the British papers, you will see that they have the same problems with their banks going under and real estate prices plummeting. It's happening everywhere.

Europeans get criticized plenty by Americans, so it's only fair that they criticize us.

My UK friends now smile indulgently when I rant: "Why don't you have screens on the windows if you live in the countryside? Why don't any of the new houses have closets? Why aren't there mixer taps and proper showers in a newly renovated bathroom?" I think there are three sinks in England where you can regulate the water temperature coming out of the faucet. Grrr! Even Europeans criticize the Brits for that last one!

Portion sizes ARE getting smaller, by the way, and for that I am grateful.

You know what? My knickers were no more" in a twist" by replying than MB's were in generating this topic. I wouldn't characterize anyone else's responses to this topic as getting their knickers in a twist...just expressing our views.

This topic caught me at a bad time, I guess. I thought the spirit and essence of this topic sounded insensitive, critical and gloating. I would never go on to a predominately British (or whatever else) board and feel free to make disparaging remarks and sweeping generalizations about an entire nation of individuals. Not cool.

This is a tough time for America. If you want to grin and gloat, have the decency and courtesy to do elsewhere. The United States is a great country. We'll work this out, and then you can find something else to slam us about, which you will undoubtedly do.

Sorry you guys. As you can see, I'm not feeling magnanimous today.

Because we're human.

Like it or not, the world economy is closely tied to the US economy, and overseas markets are reacting to what's happening. Euro $ accounts owned by US companies lost money in September, which means the US $ is at least temporarily gaining against the Euro.

As for the OP, I can understand why some might take offense. What difference does it make why we're examining our habits? The important thing is that we are. Personally, I've been reviewing our monthly expenses for about a year, and cutting back on services where I can to offset a steadily increasing monthly food bill.

No, they're exporting their garbage to us. In addition to being the cultural center of the universe, Michigan is a major recipient of the world's garbage, including all of Toronto's municipal trash for some reason. Nubs, I see you smirking ...

You're right, this is a tough time for America. And somehow or another, we've muddle through this mess. But you can't be serious in suggesting that people are ONLY expressing their views with responses such as "big glass of STFU"?

mimiboo was being critical of the US and our excesses. But there was no gloating. Whether anybody wants to believe it, the US has an incredibly outsized presence on the world stage in relation to our population. Kind of like those old EFHutton commercials, when we talk, everybody listens. What happens here, doesn't just effect Americans only, it ripples throughout the entire planet. It won't just be the US that will suffer because of this.

Are you serious?

Yes.

We get New York's, too, FWIW. Some of it, anyway.

We ship some of our garbage down to South Georgia. Not aware of any of it going overseas.

This is years ago, but I remember the story of the barge of American garbage off the coast of some Latin American country while trying to find someone willing to take it off our hands. Maybe, it was a one-time deal.

I agree for the most part. But my bank (Citizens) is owned by the Royal Bank of Scotland, which is massive. (Their holdings are vastly larger than Citibank's.) And, as it turns out, they -- along with other European banks -- have been messing around with the same awful loans U.S. banks have been buying/selling. European markets are going to be influenced not just by our own debacle but by their own, and vice versa. And unemployment is climbing there as well. We're all one big happy family in this mess.

I'm serious about everything I've posted.

And I disagree about the gloating.

I guess we are more like the British, or maybe you have a misunderstanding of how the typical American lives? Or maybe I do
We are in the top 2 or 3% of income in this country. But we have always eaten reheated leftovers, recycled, etc. I don't think we are that weird.

Mimiboo can criticize the US and Americans all she likes -- and I can ask her in no uncertain terms to at least take it elsewhere. Free speech all the way around. It's not like it matters if an American protests. The entire world believes they have a piece of us and can say anything to us anywhere anytime and we should just suck it up. I don't care if they're right. I'm tired of the arrogance.

There's another solution, of course.....don't read the #)$(*@)& thread!!!

Some of us are willing to accept, or at least entertain, criticism and are genuinely interested in learning how our POL sisters and brothers from other parts of the world, people we have gotten to know over a period of years in some cases, people we have come like and respect, see us.

And I think I've just fallen down the rabbit hole -- what a strange logic that depicts America as the victim of arrogance.

My parents were immigrants. They are both Ivy league graduates with advanced degrees. Yes there's some loyalty to this country here. We were taught to respect cultures, differences and (most importantly,) exercise manners in deference to origins and nationality.
America has it's flaws and I am of the first to admit and debate this issue. But the tone of this thread began as a demeaning condescending and sweeping generalization from an individual who "visits" and in no way shape or form can possibly grasp what America resembles outside of a city (the New Yorker cover is a gem). "Global travel" does not a frame of reference make when we are speaking about one specific, huge, enormous, diverse country. It's the audacity of generalization stated as superior sniff-up-the-sleeve fact that gauls me. I repeat, it is heathenly rude and vulgar to do this on an American forum and expect that we'll bobblehead nod to make nice. I'm sick of the arrogance too.

As I mentioned before, who says that people who don't live in a country can't criticize it? I don't accept that as an operating premise. And neither do most Americans when you think about it, at least not the ones that authorize their government to directly interfere in the affairs of other governments, which we do all the time.

American forum? The only thing American about this forum is the owner. We have no residency requirement. POL does not revolve around the US and its American members.

I do hope so , I have felt
so cosy even though I am not and it would be so inconvenient to have to move to fit in

Great post, VS!

Say it sister!

We Americans dish it out to our OWN PEOPLE if they don't kowtow to the mainstream so we should have the gonads to TAKE it.
I'm from an American family of multiple generations and I'm saddened to see what our greed and selfishness and self-righteousness has led to, and not in the eyes of the world but for our own people.

I too thought this was a world forum.

I'm hoping that Ashton Kutcher is going to step out from behind Mimiboo's avatar any moment now and tell us that we've just all been Punk'd.



Veneering, you can have our place once the BF and I high-tail it out of here to avoid the collapse.

Though it's looking more and more like there aren't going to be a whole lot of places to go hide . . .

Other countries' arrogance is only matched by American arrogance. We're not so powerful to be above criticism especially as other countries catch up with us economically and are no longer cowed by American power.

Dude , in exchange for your generous offer I was going to offer mine as a hiding spot , but , as you said it its coming, we all be doomed.

[quote name='NathanB' date='Oct 1 2008, 07:51 PM' post='409089']
I'm hoping that Ashton Kutcher is going to step out from behind Mimiboo's avatar any moment now and tell us that we've just all been Punk'd.






Maybe we have, but I'll defend to the death her right to punk me!

I have just arrived in the glorious, welcoming, demure, informed, enlightened, aware, openminded US of A.
I'll be as always, travelling extenxively......large cities, small towns, only the East coast and Mid west this trip, for 3 weeks - lecturing at a number of Universities, on creative thinking and 'futurism'.
I'll try and be as 'un arrogant' as possible, so as not to offend or upset anyone who may feel I am talking out of my ######, I shall say what people want to hear and pat students gently on the head and award them all an 'A' as they expect.
Lets not ruffle any feathers or speak our minds, lest someone gets upset.
Freedom of speech anyone?
I find the over reaction to this thread bizarrely amusing and actually quite ridiculous.
Get a grip people!
Relax.
Calm down.
I shall say no more here......these discussions will continue with US colleagues, students and friends - and don't worry, we'll keep it to ourselves.

MB

Well, if you did it would be certainly understandable, the way you were treated here by some during this exchange, but i encourage you to rethink your position. And I'm sure you won't muzzle yourself during your lectures, either -- say it ain't so! Besides, I'd love to know what your other US colleagues, friends, and students are thinking, as I'm sure many others here would, too.

This is the opening question:

Looking at current threads on this board, I find it intriguing why suddenly, when the pressure is on, people review how wasteful they have been in the past. I have to say that living in the UK, we are not reacting in the same way as you guys in the US seem to be. The obvious financial and economic issues are affecting us as well, but I guess we are not, or have not been as much of a 'throw away' society as you guys in the US?
I find it quite bizarre that it appears that people in the US are immediately adopting, what seems to me to be a 2nd world war 'make do and mend mentality', over night.
Maybe a lesson is to be learned here?
I have always recycled, reheated food, taken leftovers to work etc. Thats what we in the UK have done for years (ok.....not everyone, but it's common).....

The question clearly addresses the board as being mostly American. Which it is. And again, we don't go to forums of mostly Europeans and criticize them as a people, because that's considered by us to be unspeakably rude.

Cath, she wasn't treated with kid gloves because she generated a very provocative post. Lesson: don't begin a sensitive topic and then expect people to pussyfoot around with their responses. No one here lost a grip, or needs to calm down, or relax. She threw it out there so she's getting responses.

Travelling extensively in this country, or working around citizens of this country, does not give anyone spectacular insight into the attitudes of a nation of individuals.

Americans are now discussing pulling back on their spending habits and adopting more sensible financial approaches. So what?? If that bothers someone in another country, they should go find something to occupy their attention that causes them less perplexity.

Mimiboo said:
I am of Polish origin. Parents came to the UK after the war from Poland - with NOTHING. NADA....not a penny. They worked, saved and were happy. Never borrowed from banks, never went on welfare or took money from the state...never lived beyond their means. When my father died, mother down sized and sold the family home for a very large sum of money, from which she lives now.
I only borrowed to buy my house and worked like hell, to make it a priority to pay that off - which I did.
Thats what you do, isn't it? Thats what we try to do....pay off any temporary debt. We don't add to it, do we?
Credit cards are just a convenience, and are paid off every month. You buy what you can afford, not what your eyes want.
Oh...some lessons will be learned for sure now.....

I am of Scottish origin. My parents came to the US in 1797 with nothing. NADA. They also worked and saved, never borrowed from banks, etc. My great grandfather was a farmer. My grandfather was a coal miner. My father was career Navy. My mother is the first person on either side to be allowed to finish high school. Everybody else prior was needed at home to work. She's also the first to go to college. The generations before me had no debt and no credit. My father's credit was perfect. Mine is good. I am entirely self-supporting and have less than $5,000 credit card debt.

Ohhh, I guess I'm gonna learn some lessons all right ... which lessons would those be exactly, Mimiboo? What lessons do I deserve because my family has no comparison in virtue to your Polish ancestry?

based on IP address tracking [where a person logs in from] the Perfume of Life community is roughly 50% US based and 50% global/non-US. This figure includes all people visiting the community to read the threads, not just the members who post. Perfume of Life has a global audience, albeit an English-speaking one.

J.

The thread was addressed to people in the US, however, comparing them to people in the UK.

I find it rather bizarre that Mimiboo seems to be condemning Americans for changing their habits for the better when shown the error of their extravagant ways. Isn't it a sign of intelligence to learn from one's mistakes? Are we supposed to continue being "wasteful?"

If, for example, Mimiboo's doctor told her to stop smoking, would we think it bizarre if she suddenly stopped and gloat that we had never smoked? Why wouldn't she keep on smoking because, after all, she is from Europe where everybody smokes.

Many of us on this board are definitely not the wasteful, throwaway people she only seems to encounter on her travels. Perhaps on her latest trip, she will be exposed to more people like us and change her thinking. Of course, this thread would have been a lot shorter and less heated if she had qualified her statements with "some Americans I have met."

The same parts of the OP struck me as well. First of all, we already recycle, reheat food, take our own bag lunches, don't do anything much extravagant - we already live extremely frugally on many levels - what my hubby and I are concerned about is what happens if, with all the measures we already do to save, food costs go up, heating oil goes up, gas prices go up, medical bills go up, clothing and product costs go up AND we don't get paid next month or lose our jobs because small businesses may go under. Even though we are careful and go without extras and luxuries a lot of the time. we are now looking at how will we survive if we can no longer make do. Thinking and planning what we might do in a true financial depression is only natural when we have been told by the media and the politicians that this may be the worst time ever in our lives. I do not find such coping mechanisms bizarre at all. Human beings are extremely adaptable. Here in the US, many of us have adapted to having a bit more to spend and more to buy at cheaper prices, and now we will adapt to having less. There is nothing wrong with trying to encourage one another and share tips on how to face the difficult times ahead.

Bye

It should, however, give one insight into the difference between the metric system and the former British system of measurement, as well as the relative prices of gasoline. Something's a little off and as a result, I'm not buying everything I read here. Seems like a big windup to me.

I also find it odd that someone in London is seemingly using a keyboard with a $ but without a £, but maybe there's a logical explanation for that. I'm not convinced there's a good explanation for a frequent US traveler from the UK misstating the price of gasoline/petrol by a factor of 4.