Looking at current threads on this board, I find it intriguing why suddenly, when the pressure is on, people review how wasteful they have been in the past. I have to say that living in the UK, we are not reacting in the same way as you guys in the US seem to be. The obvious financial and economic issues are affecting us as well, but I guess we are not, or have not been as much of a 'throw away' society as you guys in the US?
I find it quite bizarre that it appears that people in the US are immediately adopting, what seems to me to be a 2nd world war 'make do and mend mentality', over night.
Maybe a lesson is to be learned here?
I have always recycled, reheated food, taken leftovers to work etc. Thats what we in the UK have done for years (ok.....not everyone, but it's common).....
Now I can afford not to but I still do, waste not, want not...thats how we should all be anyway, all the time, surely?

Well, I've always had a thrifty mentality. Right now my money is not going as far as it used to, so I'm grateful for any tips I can get.

-Noelle

Well,...................You don't live in the U.S. Impossible to be in our shoes.

I too have always had the thrift mentality , bought thrift even, recylced , brown bagged my lunch , opted for public transport , never purshased above my means , NO plastic abuse even put myself on "no needless purchase" moratoriums.

And yet , something simple like a trip to the grocer is very telling , things have gone up , even just the most basic pantry requirements have risen in price. Whats a body to do ?

Well...actually, I work with Americans...from all over America, have done intensively for 8-9 years and I am in the US at least 4 times a year for 3 weeks at a tme - in fact I fly tomnorrow for another 3 week stint. I have many friends stateside, as well as businees colleagues - so I DO actually have an idea. Granted, I don't live in the US - I travel extensively worldwide and have a global overview.
MB

You're not off-base at all, IMO. We are a wasteful society, pretty much....and I say that without making a comparison between us and any other country/society.

We like disposable things, processed food, cheap clothing that doesn't last but as a result we don't feel guilty about throwing away, massive numbers of automobiles with only one person in them everywhere you look (probably because we lack efficient public transportation systems overall), etc. In addition, we work so long and hard that many of us turn to restaurants or processed food rather than cook at home, and for those of us who can afford it, we have to pay money to do tasks that the average family did on their own twenty or thirty years ago -- housecleaning, dog-walking, errand running.

You're right, this new frugality some people here are embracing is a reaction, not well thought out, and as a consequence will probably not last.....but you can't say that it isn't a step in the right direction.

Prices have risen hugely here in the UK, but it's been happening gradually for around a year now. Our petrol (gas) was 1.17GPB (approx $2.34) a gallon a few weeks ago (its down to a more acceptable $2.20 now), so we have been in a similar situation to you guys for a while now.
Beat me down if you must, but I find that Americans (sorry to generalise, but its true!) over react dramatically to everything......
MB

Thank you Cathleen.
I am mortified when I am in the US and:
Everyone is used to huge portions in restaurants and is forced to take doggy bags home. Everything is damned well supersized!
Everyone drives everywhere - whats wrong with walking??
I could go on and on....but I'll upset people here, so I won't
MB

I should clarify that I am in Canada and also as an outsider looking in , and as one who has lived like this for a long time am seeing what seems to be a kneejerk , so I do concur.

But as one who advocates this "thrift" I see it as a step in the right direction.

My parents grew up in the Depression, and my grandparents likewise lived through hard times when they were young. So no... I'm not doing anything differently. The things I posted on that other thread are things I've always done. So, no change here.

However, I do see where those around me are changing things. They have to... they were living beyond their means for a long time and now, with credit ratings getting bumped down, it's time to budget higher credit card payments into the monthly output.

I don't use credit cards and can't get them... and that's a good thing. A blessing in disguise.

In general I find it best not to generalize, but I think you may be right about Americans having a throwaway culture. That being said I think saying Americans "over react dramatically to everything" is not quite fair. What is true is that it is getting harder and harder to make ends meet and our dollar does not go as far as it once did. Rather than predict doom and gloom I see nothing wrong with talking about how we can change our lifestyles for the better.

-Noelle

Unless you live and work in a city it is impossible to walk. A car is a necessity!!!

Mimiboo, I don't want to get into any sweeping generalizations here about the legendary wastefulness of North American society (and I include Canada in that), which has been going on for about fifty years and will eventually have to be dealt with. But I do want to focus on the notion of sudden attention to doing things differently.

From what I have seen of the comments by members from the US on this board, the posters are people who have been responsible and lived within their means and are anticipating possibly having to encounter hard times because of the irresponsible actions of others. I think it's highly prudent under the circumstances to mull over and discuss how one might face potential financial hardship over which one has no control. The point that a lot of people are making here is that people who have lived responsibly and within their means are enraged that they will be asked to pay for and in some cases even reward those who have not.

Thats it. It's the 'living beyond your means, I want it now' society. It had to come to an end - it couldn't go on forever.
I actually think it will be a good learning curve. We have had too much too easily in the western world and we have taken it for granted. Now that we have to review - people adopt a panic mentality!
I am of Polish origin. Parents came to the UK after the war from Poland - with NOTHING. NADA....not a penny. They worked, saved and were happy. Never borrowed from banks, never went on welfare or took money from the state...never lived beyond their means. When my father died, mother down sized and sold the family home for a very large sum of money, from which she lives now.
I only borrowed to buy my house and worked like hell, to make it a priority to pay that off - which I did.
Thats what you do, isn't it? Thats what we try to do....pay off any temporary debt. We don't add to it, do we?
Credit cards are just a convenience, and are paid off every month. You buy what you can afford, not what your eyes want.
Oh...some lessons will be learned for sure now.....
MB

I'm not an extravagant person, so nothing has changed for me.

From reading the British press, I gather that many Brits are having similar problems with credit cards, mortgages and were getting fat from driving everywhere because public transport is disappearing. In fact, at the airport, I remember thinking that there were a lot of American tourists, which surprised me since the dollar was so weak and tourism was supposed to be down. Then they opened their mouths to speak and I realized all the fatties were British! So much for calling Americans fat.

I've always been frugal, in most areas. Perfume is a luxury, that I'm not frugal with, no. But, in other areas, I am extremly frugal. I believe that's why I can afford a luxury, like nice perfume and not even so much have a credit card to my name. I don't work outside the home.

Tonight for example we had rubber chicken. Rubber chicken you ask? Well, I am strectching it as far as possible!

I personally am always looking for ways to stretch our money. Right now with the prices skyrocketing each time we go to the grocery, money doesn't go as far as it used to. I love to read money saving tips from others!



Thank you, Noelle for asking about tips!

Thanks Fumebag. We have a dish in our house simply called "stretch". It's ground turkey, elbow noodles, tomato puree and seasonings. We "stretch" it over as many nights as possible.

-Noelle

I qualified up thread that I am from Canada and am thinking that could be taken wrong. Yes , Canada is as Five O says , pretty much in the same boat.

You're right, Glo, of course, and America is a HUGE country geographically. But we used to have self-sustaining small towns, and now all we've got is big cities, sprawling suburbs -- nothing in the ex-urban areas to support a reasonable way of life any more. Maybe this should be part of what we consider when we consider doing things differently suddenly.

Our infrastructure is a huge problem, no doubt Cathleen. There are no sidewalks where I live, and towns with traditional downtowns are out of my budget. I would love to walk to the corner store, but I can't because I have to cross two highways. This is an often overlooked problem, but a big problem as far as I'm concerned.

-Noelle

It's been a while since I've been in the UK, but isn't gas sold by the litre? So £1.17/litre would be the equivalent of $2.09/litre, or approximately a whopping $8/gallon! Fortunately, I paid $3.19/gallon on my way home tonight.

Mrs v, I can't find it right now but yesterday I heard a statistic on the news saying on average Canadians owe about $1.07 for every dollar they take in. So Canadians are overextended on credit debt as well. I don't know how a person can sleep at night knowing they owe more money than they have.

is that the stat ? , I knew there were people swimming in it but wow

ya know , its worth the ribbing I take for being a bit of luddite with no plastic or loans out there

The US media is doing a fantastic job of banging the gong and declaring that our current crisis is due to greed. It's making us want to put on the collective sackclothes and ashes. The media is leaving out the fact that most of that greed was on the investment banks' end. Most people were really lulled by the "don't worry, this mortgage looks outrageous but you'll refinance and make a profit in a year" lines we were fed. There is precious little consumer education in this country - analytical thinking seems to be left off the curriculum.

Also, in the UK, petrol has always been a pricey commodity. The sharp uptick in price here caught a lot of people off guard. I remember being stunned when it reached $2/gallon. I remember it being 99 cents per gallon when I was in grad school, and that was about 10 years ago - it's gone down a bit, but was more than quadruple that just a little while ago. Adding to that, most of the non-urban US does not have transit options, and when our housing market was booming, people of lower incomes were pushed farther and farther away from their jobs when they purchased their homes. And upperclass people moved to exurbs so they could get the McMansions of their dreams on multi-acre lots.

I don't like generalizations. Generalizations are one step away from bigotry. Americans do not always overreact dramatically to everything. That statement is, in fact, a dramatic overreaction.

Americans are rightfully concerned right now about our financial structure, both personal and global. It's only natural that we're all talking right now about what we can do to try to set it right. Some of it is temporarily knee-jerk, sure. That's natural and will subside. A lot of it is also blow up by the press.

No matter what we do, how we act or what we say, we take criticism. If we had underreacted, someone would jump us for that.

By the way, my in-laws in England are just as wasteful as anyone here.

Touche Velvet!
I just drove the width of my state last week to the Mississippi river and for 4 hours saw little but self sustaining small towns and farmland greenery. Upon getting out of the car I saw people wearing non designer clothing, driving older cars. I passed through a "Heritage Days" Festival on the Ohio river and saw vendors selling fresh ground corn meal, local country hams, regional cheeses, wines from area vines, winter squash and vegetables from the fields as well as cloth woven from sheep and hemp produced locally, eggs, fresh meats, cider...plus a lot more. The entire state also has vast energy reserves in the form of coal. Recycling containers, compost piles, and rain barrels as well as wind mills and solar panels are evidenced everywhere. Americans are often judged by our big cities and what Washington announces. There's a hell of a lot in between, and that hell of a lot of people have recently spoken to their government about excactly what they think of Washington's "money management" policies. Excess is what main stream Americans are currently, and loudly, railing against. It is the first time in my life that I can remember, aside from the Vietnam war, that the masses and multitude of middle Americans have risen to these numbers in order to say "no, it stops". Generalizations about excess can always be brandished about people in any culture in any country. I know what I see when I look around me every day, and will not accept this sweeping blanket label. No way, no how...NO.

One more point. The thrift stores and second hand places which I've been frequenting for the the past 15 years have all (yes, all 8 of them) have built new and bigger structures during the past 6 years in each and every location that I shop. More and more people are customers, more cash is being spent on used or older items. Revenue produced was such that they could afford total revamp. It worked and sales are even higher. This did not happen over night. Far from it. It happened because people were beating a path to the door of value and frugality. Have I said that I loathe and revile preconceived notions related to "all Amercians". Have I????????

A really good post.

Same here Noelle. In my area public transportation is terrible. When we were in Paris and Amsterdam last year, I loved taking public transportation.... the metro and buses. I even loved being able to walk to a ton of places. But, in saying that, those cities are very small and concentrated compared to most of our cities in the US (not including NYC or similar cities with subways, etc.) which are really spread out and nothing is really within walking distance like it is in Paris and Amsterdam.

Another thing about American Culture is that we are a car culture. Cars are a big deal here. They are a part of our culture. Speaking for myself, I love cars and I love driving. We go to the car show every October (going this weekend) and the convention center where these show are, are always packed with car enthusiasts. I mean packed as in thousands of people there checking out the cars.... new and classic, etc. Thankfully, America is producing cars that are more efficient ie: hybrids, etc. Smart cars are even being sold here now and I am seeing a lot more of them in my town and I think it's great. That shows me that people are definitley aware of the enviroment, saving gas, etc.

~~Dawn

Thank you VelvetSky.

Many thanks from me as well, Mary.

Thank You, VelvetSky...well said !!!

How funny, because I was shocked by all the cigarette smoke in the fine restaurants we dined in while visiting Paris and Amsterdam. I could hardly breathe. It was such a shame because the food in Paris is the best I have ever tasted - and I think the smoke somehow makes the food experience a little less enjoyable. But nonetheless, great food.




*** I should mention that the only restaurant where smoking was frowned upon and not allowed was Alain Ducasse's divine restaurant in the Plaza Athenee. We were so grateful for that because we were actually able to taste and smell what we were eating. The food there was heavenly. Nothing like it anywhere. It's a dining experience that I hope everyone will have a chance to do in your lifetime. I will never forget that night.**

You can find something to criticize and something to praise in every country.

Very, very true.

WWII springs to mind, pre-Pearl Harbor. Americans are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Ain't it the truth. That's true even among Americans.

I used to live on the East coast. When I told people I was moving to Michigan, they were appalled -- "But there's nothing there!"

The New Yorker captured this well ...

I understand what you are trying to say. The throwaway culture, producing waste more than anywhere else in the world, excess, burning fuel more than anybody else... I sometimes like generalizations. Generalizations make easies to comprehend bigger issues. They don't claim that everybody's the same. Unfortunately, if you write something like you did, people don't try to think what you mean by it. They may they take it personally, or become defensive or even aggressive and start telling you not to critizise them. Or they hit back: you are not any better than us.

If you are on a verge of economic depression, a bad one, it is wise to discuss what could be done more effectively, question the way things have been. Could you improve public transportation? Could you stop wasting natural resouces? Producing too much waste? Live more economically? Downsize a bit instead of supersizing? Make those portions smaller?

I wish this were a possibility for most of us here. Unfornuately in places where I have lived, back in So.California and even here in Las Vegas/Henderson, the public transportation system is not well thought out. I have to admit that I do prefer to drive by myself and having that space to myself since everywhere I am, there is always someone to disrupt any peace and quiet I have. So my drive time is part of my "ME" time. I guess I could be much more better with carpooling with someone but then again, I would lose more "ME" time. So I do not.

You have posed some very interesting thoughts. I have gone ape wild shopping the past year and I do have some financial debt that I really need to take care of. I have been selling my stuff since when it comes down to it, "Am I going to use up all of my scents?" Most likely not in this lifetime. I have a lot more to get rid of, in fact, more purging to occur very soon in the next few days. I really just need to pare things down. I have been a real glutton for no good reason. I used to be very good with saving but I have been absolutely atrocious with saving in the past 4 years. I do have money locked up in a CD and I have a 401K that I contribute to. But if I were unemployed tomorrow, I would be really up the creek without a paddle. I can't rely on Phil, my partner to support me nor would I want him to. It's time for "ME" to wake up and stop being the spoiled brat that I have been.

I know us Americans are VERY SPOILED. There's no doubt about it. But the bubble has popped on the fairy tale existence we have had for the past 10 years or so. It's time to all get ourselves together and stop playing games.

This just my experience and not meant to be directed towards anyone here at all.

Mimiboo!

The U.S. dollar has depreciated significantly over the course of the last six to seven years, making almost all imported goods (from luxuries to necessities) that much more expensive. This takes a toll on every U.S. citizen on this forum, as we rely on imported food, textiles and energy in our daily life (being a citizen from an island country, I'm sure you can empathize with this point). Below is a chart showing the downward movement of the dollar:



The dollar has rallied in value over the past month or so, but this bailout being negotiated in our Congress is bound to add further stress by plunging our government much deeper into debt, causing a spike in inflation while also necessitating a significant hike in taxes across the board (no matter the election year pandering presently being floated). Meanwhile, housing values slumped over 16% in July (drying up any remaining access to credit), unemployment is in negative territory (in six-digit-figure land) and continuing to trend downward, and there is presently no "fix" against the gathering recession. Add on the fact that decreased U.S. consumer demand is causing the Chinese economy to also contract, with Chinese export factories shutting down, well . . . goodbye, easily affordable goods!

So at this point in time, a British citizen with her wallet full of GBP's (presently trading at more than 2 to 1 against the U.S. dollar) pooh-poohing "you Americans" for over-reacting can sound unfortunately similar to "Let Them Eat Cake" . . .

Mimiboo, your blanket declarations are terribly disturbing. Please try to look more deeply--at the U.S., at any country, at any situation, at any segment of humanity--instead of exerting judgement.

I won't add more to what Velvetsky has already stated with honesty and eloquence.

Something like this is what I meant by "become defensive and start telling you not to critizise them..."
*runs away avoiding the flame-thrower to protect the EURO's in the wallet*

I couldn't resist posting this little guy for you.... lol

To answer the original question - when there is no pressure to do things differently, then one does not necessarily need to do things differently. When one is being told that the sky is falling and the next Great Depression is around the corner, one resourceful and adaptive coping mechanism is to look at alternative ways of doing things, and to look for inspiration to one's ancestors and how they got through more difficult times. It's actually a rather optimistic, "we can do it", "we can make do" way of handling the prospect of a very scary situation. I was brought up by very frugal parents, but lived on the outskirts of a very wealthy neighborhood - what I felt was envy and longing for the lifestyle I saw being given to others and somehow withheld from me. When I was offered credit, I was thrilled to finally have access to all those luxury items I had seen others enjoying. I grew up feeling deprived and went way overboard compensation for it when I was an adult - I also did not want my children treated with the same disdain & judgment that I had experienced coming from some of the rich, privileged kids. So my children wore designer baby clothes, had the latest and greatest - all of which I could not afford. It has taken me almost 50 years to get to the point where I don't need "stuff" to validate my worth. There is something cleansing and bracing in the idea of tightening one's belt, being frugal, making do with less and ultimately being contented within oneself BUT the reality of what may happen if we don't get paid next week, or lose our home, or can't buy food is very frightening. I think that looking to how my grandmother survived two World Wars and the Great Depression is a way of calming our fears and giving us hope that we will survive and adapt to whatever comes our way.

I didn't read this till now....

AMEN MARY!! So well written and said.

Miss Red's statement will likely get deleted so I'd like to say here that she has supporters who whole heartedly agree with her vividly spot-on analysis.
If you live here fine, I'll spar and parry, but if you don't then ignorance is the only lense availible. Standing in place whilst looking through expensive binoculars and speaking to a native doesn't place one in-the-know about the vista.

Thank you, everyone, who stated that they shared my viewpoint.

My girl Redhead pretty much summed it up for me as well. It will be a cold day in - well, you know where - when I feel the need to take advice or criticism from people in places where they have their own housekeeping to attend to.

I had to giggle a bit at this line. I have an acquaintance who is Greek. He is a fantastic businessman, very successful, but very frugal in his personal, daily habits. He likes to go back every other year to visit relatives and friends in Greece. When he takes them out to dinner, he gets very upset when they leave food on their plates. He says, "Take that with you! No wonder you're so poor!" Of course, he's being incredibly outspoken and was frustrated and funny (those who know him take it in stride), but that little venue does illuminate the falseness of a contention that all Americans are wasteful and everyone else is not.

I see it as an individual thing.

It is an individual thing, I agree.

I take responsibility for my own actions whether they be good, bad, or indifferent; as everyone should, no matter where they are from should as well.

I can't blame anyone else for my own financial status quo. We make our own lives the way they are and there are times things are just out of our control like the financial state here in the U.S.

Yes, Renee, along with several other here, hit the nail on the head.

I wondered how this thread would flow...and I kept my opinions and observations to myself...which I think the OP should have done.
Truly, some of the things posted here are so smug and arrogant and downright ugly...the whole kicking people when they're down aspect of it...makes me...frustrated, a bit sick at the stomach, and not a little angry.