Why do young women call themselves "ho's"? It really ticks me off when I hear that term being used to describe girls/women - especially when it's being misused as a term of endearment, so to speak.

I bring this up because I have a just turned 13 y/o niece and we stay in touch via myspace. On myspace, the user(s) are allowed to post personal bulletins that everyone on their friends list can read. Anyway, she just started jr. high this year and I am amazed at the changes in her style and her language. My pet peeve with her is the use of the word "Ho's" or "B*tches" when she talks about herself or her group of friends. Honestly, the words are used like they are a good thing and or like a sisterhood. I find nothing fun or warm or endearing when I hear that word(s) being used.

For an example, this is her latest bulletin:

Ice-Cream social today at 6<333

Going with myyy hoesss<3333


;D


Hopefully we will see Arielll<3333


mmkay?
Who is goinggg[:

I consider myself pretty liberal and I try to keep an open mind, but this gets to me. My sister (her mom) just says it's no big deal and they're just at that age where they say things like that. I disagree with my sister. I feel she needs to take this opportunity and explain to her that using derogatory words to describe herself and her friends is hurtful to them in the long run. I know they won't really understand, but at least she'll be a little more aware.

Is this a lost cause? Anyone else hate those 2 words?

This would profoundly bother me if my 11 year old niece used terminology like this. I think it's really up to the mother/your sister to set the tone. But saying it's okay like she does, really does give the "okay" to your niece/her daughter that it is okay when truly it is not. It might not be meant to be harmful but it is harmful, I do agree.

And I think that anyone else that disagrees with this, is a ho-bag!

You are so Baaaaad!!!

I'm sorry, dear, I couldn't resist! LOL!!!

But I do think it's really inappropriate to use that word so loosely. Because it denotes "lesser than" attitude and we all have come along way building up ourselves to be better persons. These loosely used words, even though some may think as harmless, really do have a bad connatation to the soul, IMO. But that's just me.

I agree with you, Dawn, but one day she will look back on this unbecoming language that she uses and be embarrassed by it. Her mother shouldn't tolerate it, though.

No apologies. You made me laugh.

What you just wrote though, is soooo right on. I think that's what is bothering me the most..... that the term is used so loosely and it's as though her generation has become desensitized to it.

Hi R1964!

And, I agree with you that one day she will look back on this and it will make her uncomfortable. The problem with her mom (my sister) is that she thinks this is cute and doesn't see the other side. My sister uses the word herself when she gets pizzed off at another woman. So to me that is kind of contradictory when she uses the word "ho" to degrade someone but then when her daughter uses it, it's cute.


p.s. love the new pic of your grandbaby. ))

Dawn,

Thanks, there are more where that came from, LOL.

When you call me R1964, it makes me think of R2D2 and C3PO! May the force be with you! LOL!

I am speaking from experience, here.

Kids today!!!

There is a desensitization and also the meanings of these and other words are changing and already don't mean the same thing to the parents as they do to the kids. I recall a recent disussion (I can't remember where though) where someone was pointing out that the word "b*tches" no longer referred exclusively to females; it could easily refer to a group of boys. Younger people have their own words and phrases and have for a long time, in part to distinguish themselves from older generations and sometimes just to shock a listener and mostly to amuse themselves or their peers. You can bet your niece didn't write those things thinking her aunt would be reading them and I doubt she meant to say that, literally, she and these friends of hers are prostitutes! She was writing for a certain audience and using appropriate vocabulary for that context (yes! teenagers are acutely aware of what is acceptable and unacceptable to their peer group), and I would guess that adults are not a part of that intended audience. If she referred to you (or her mom) as a 'ho' when speaking or in an e-mail or a handwritten message in a birthday card that would be a different matter - but she probably wouldn't do that. We all use different vocabulary in different settings. I'd say stuff in front of my brother that I would never say in front of a co-worker, or to a judge in a courtroom while in handcuffs ( LOL!), for example. See what I mean?

What I am saying is that this may not be as alarming as it seems at first. So much depends on the context, what that word in that context means, how the word is said, who is saying it and to whom, and if the one using the "offensive" word has more power than the person he/she is referring to in the situation - so much of meaning is relative and ephemeral. In this case these are the words she and her peers use in the least formal settings imaginable - when they are together face-to-face and on MySpace. She will probably outgrow such usage as she matures and (I am thinking now of myself when I was 13) any attempt to get her to see the error of her ways is likely to result in a "whatever" response maybe accompanied by an eye-roll.

P.S. Imagine yourself at the age of thirteen. Now imagine your mom and aunt and maybe other older-generation relatives "overhearing" and offering opinions on communications between you and your closest friends.

I don't personally feel that anyone that age should even be on MYSPACE. My grandson is 15 and his parents do not allow him on same.

Dawnkana, you're a sweetie for wanting to protect your niece from unwittingly using self-deprecatory language. It may be "in" as ellen says, but if I were a parent, that would not be my criterion for what I allowed my child to do. Swearing was in among kids when I was growing up but I was not allowed to swear. That meant whether my parents were around or not. The parents have to call the shots.

I am also an aunt and although for the most part I would say my nephew was brought up by his parents in exemplary fashion, there were some issues with which I strongly disagreed. I had to zip it; it was not my call--unless asked I did not interfere. However, that said, in my bailiwick, if there were things I did not agree my nephew should do, he was not allowed to do them on my turf. A small example is I don't think soda is good for kids and I didn't and don't buy it. Once I was in a restaurant with my nephew. He wanted a Coke. I thought he should have milk or juice. He protested that he is allowed to drink Coke. I replied he may be allowed to drink coke but I don't buy Coke. He had juice. I think that if your niece is visiting you and uses that language, you would be within your right to say in my house that language is not permitted. Maybe it could start a discussion with her of why you feel it hurts her. But in areas where she is under her parents' supervision, I think you have to bow out.

I am usually strongly anti-luddite in regards to language evolution. I have swallowed silently a lot of stuff my kids say because I do see that it is a product of the natural evolution of language and that it does not have the meaning it once did.

However. I am also strongly feminist and would make sure an child who used such language towards women would have to put up with my forcing them to deconstruct it and really grasp what it meant and implied.

There is no point not tolerating something without having a real good reason for it--"doesn't sound nice", "is rude" etc.. is not necessarily a good reason.

I read your comments with fascination and agreement.

My kids were allowed to say certain things WITHIN the home, that could not be acceptable outside-
Anything hateful was automatic NO, however.

THAT said, the baaaad Mrs. M. , after a long, horrid day at work, turned to her young surrogate workdaughters and blurted:
" Where all my hoes at ?"

It did make my poor coworkers guffaw.
But it's not appropriate anywhere there is no real intimacy, and may cause pain or chagrin.....

My daughter Rebecca and I have had many conversations about the usage of these words.

As a feminist, my take is that they are perjorative and negative.

Becca's take is that using these types of words playfully and in a silly way removes their power. Like taking a stinger away from a bee.

I remember when I was 13, and I loved shocking people. I would venture to say that Ellennyc is right on in her interpretation of the situation. If your niece invited you to look at her Myspace page, then I would feel free to comment on how anti-feminist and denigrating you find those words to be, and let it go at that.

Thanks Ellen for your insight. She doesn't refer to any adults or family members as ho's. It's just her close cirlce of girlfriends. So, I see your point. I did talk to my sister last night and she said that she herself doesn't like it when her daughter uses the word, but she said it's because of the way her daughter says it and/or uses it. The way they use it is not the way it's intended to be used. They laugh when they use it. Does that make sense?

My sister and I were also trying to think back to when we were 13/14 yrs. old and we didn't really talk like that but we do remember the word slut and b*tch being thrown around then - frequently.

So, I am just taking it for what it is now - her 13 y/o world. )

I understand but I don't have any control over that. I have one that is just for my cross country friends and family and it's alot cheaper than long distance calls.

I would agree with this. I don't think we have to get all up in arms about feminism because a group of women or girls addresses themselves as b*tches or ho's. It's most likely meant to be a little funny, a little rebellious. If they find it removes the sting and power to the word(s) and makes it less taboo (which I think is already the case in the present day youth vernacular), then I don't see why not. It's one thing to call yourself or your immediate circle by accepted terminology in the group; it's another thing to use that same term out of context, like addressing a stranger or authority figure that way. If you don't like the words you don't have to use them. We can't stop the evolution of a word's use just because we don't like a word or don't agree with it. There is already too much PC censorship as it is.

Hi FIveO,

Thanks for your reply. She has never used it in front of me nor has ever called any adult that word. So, I'm trying now to take it with a grain salt and let her be. I've said my peace to my sister and I have enlightened my niece and that's all I can do at this point.

Oh and the swearing thing is still in. ;0

~~Dawn

THanks Teacake. I agree about seeing this as a product of the natural evolution of language. In hindsight, I know it will wear itself out eventually. I'm 38 and understand the meaning behind the word but at 13 she doesn't have the life experience to know exactly what the meaning behind the word is. I don't think I would have known or cared at 13 what the meaning of the word meant.

But my feminist side sure does get rankled when I hear that word.

~~Dawn

Hi Lisa,

I'm getting it that it is most likely being used to be slightly funny and rebellious. It just bugged me yesterday and I have learned alot here on this board since I posted this entry. I decided to grin and bear it because I know she isn't using to hurt people.

The replies here have opened my eyes and my mind.


~~Dawn

Thanks Chaya. So, where were all your hoes at? lol

Hi Mary,

I'm seeing your daughter's perspective now since I posted this subject. The stinger has been removed. Thanks dear.


~~Dawn

Hi Caz,

Yep, my sister and I loved shocking people to at that age. Still do every once in a while. lol


~Dawn

"There's some Hos in the house, there's some hos in the house!" LOL!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeaMr2EBvmw

I'm with you, Dawnie. Hate to see that word bandied about.

An addendum, sweetie :

A dear friend at work referred to me as a 'skank ho'.
She WAS joking, of course.....
I bristled-
Something I rarely do, and shot back:
" I'm neither a skank, nor a ho, Call me broad, call me dame, but NEVER either of those."

Needless to say, she was dumbstruck
This, from easygoing Mrs. M.

I, too am a feminist, Dawnie.
I realize they are only words, but words hurt.
And in combination, they can devastate.
As mamas, we know how kids [ and ourselves, periodically] love to shock.

NOW- regarding 'my hoes'...
They were exhausted, my younguns, from trying to satisfy the public, and the ailing, and their own ethos.
Sitting on their pretty young bottoms, giving report to the oncoming soon-to-be-suffering -bastards .
They just laughed and hugged me.

Oh Chaya,

You can call *me* a ho anytime you want, really you could call me anything, and I don't mind.


But if anyone calls any *13 year old* that word in front of me, well, let's just say that that person will be the first to achieve outer space orbit without a rocket.



Dawn, I think you've done the right thing stating your objections to your sister and niece. That unfortunately is all you can do. Hopefully they'll come around.

[quote name='GalileosDaughter' date='Oct 11 2008, 06:31 AM' post='411471']
Oh Chaya,

You can call *me* a ho anytime you want, really you could call me anything, and I don't mind.


But if anyone calls any *13 year old* that word in front of me, well, let's just say that that person will be the first to achieve outer space orbit without a rocket.



GD, my dearest-
Just you wait...

I hear tell you'll be at Sniffa .
If that's so- I'll hug the very breath out of you, with the greatest pleasure....

I can't wait!
But please, leave some breath, I need to sniff the perfumes!
(((((((Chaya)))))))

I too cringe when I hear certain words used toward women... hos, b*tches, and an old c-word that shall remain nameless (and has lost none of its nasty power). But kids will do what they've always done (shocking!), and so the language evolves. A word starts out with one meaning, and ends up somewhere else, barely recognizable. Remember the recent discussion on the word "gay"? "Ho" may eventually become a synonym for "girlfriend" and be acceptable in polite company, or it may simply fall out of fashion and disappear.

But I do think everyone -- young and old -- should understand the possible interpretations of what drops out of their mouth. For iffy words, a parent should ask "you do know what that means, don't you?", and if the teen doesn't, Google it, and have a discussion. I think that plants a seed of doubt about using the word, though they'd never admit it, and will no doubt keep using it with their friends... for now.... until they decide "no, I don't want to be referred to as a whore, even in jest".

And speaking of whores, for an interesting plethora of meanings, look at the word "tramp"...
Dictionary: tramp