Prince Barry has decided that my comments on Luca Turins Book must not be mentioned in the Arts section. He has deleted my posts twice. I am sure this will be cut as well, but would appreciate it if anyone can explain to me this logic. PB said that few people read The Arts section. How utterly sad this is.

I didn't see the comments in question, PJ, but Barry simply loooooooooooooooooves to delete stuff, it makes him feel all giddy and happy, much like you or I would feel, after discovering a great perfume.
He loves to decide what is or isn't appropriate regardless of whether or not it's in the TOUs.
Consider your deleted contribution a good deed for the happiness of he - who - must - tell - us - how - to - think - or - feel.

I'm confused. Did PB totally delete your posts or move them? I didn't read the thread because it didn't appeal to me, but I would think that if you said something "objectionable" he would have given you an explanation. Have you asked for one? As to reading The Arts section, I read threads from the "view new posts" link, so everything shows up. I then choose to open the threads that interest me at that moment. I don't read anywhere near all of them.Perhaps some people read forum by forum, but I don't. I want to see what has happened since the last time I logged on. Am I odd in using this approach? It seemed redundant to me to slog thru every forum each time I logged on.

Hi Jane,

I would have thought to post about this book in Arts, too, but it doesn't offend me to have it in the perfume section. I think it's fine in either spot.

We HAVE talked about this book in other threads recently, and all were in the Perfume section. For that reason I can understand PB wanting to maintain some continuity and consistency by putting your thread there, as well.

Ruby

Is there a reason why a thread on a book about perfume cannot be started in both "Talk About Perfume" AND "Talk about Arts" sections? The poster could post it in one, copy it, and then paste it in the other section. No?

Talk About Perfume means Talk About Perfume. A book is not a perfume.

ETA: I read the entire forum.

I peruse each of our fora, with regularity. If there's a topic in which I'm interested I'll find it, and post. The Arts Board, happens to be my favorite.

I said absolutley nothing objectionable. What I said was that the cover of LT's book reminded me of a bottle of Chanel #5, and that the text was very scientific. filled with atoms and molecules. I think PB felt I had no business ignoring the LT thread he had already started on the perfume site. What was deleted was the fact that I said as an author it bothers me that books are not discussed in the Art section. As FTR said "books are not perfume", but apparently this subtle distinction did not compute with our learned moderator. Why we can't have two threads about the book is a mystery. I assume the key to this mystery is that Barry feels he must control everything said about LT on this site, even if it means deleting thoughtful and non objectionable comments. In my PM box earlier today I heard heard that I will be taken to task for my comments. I will let you all know how this plays out, or not if I am kicked off. This post will most likely me deleted too.

please excuse the typos.

Nah you won't get kicked off... I'm first in line! ;D
You might get a razing lecture about why you're wrong and why he's right, and how dare you question the saint mod's actions, it's for the good of the board, yaddayaddayadda, a lot of self righteous, hypocritical BS that is as senseless as it is ridiculous, it might even get you one of those dreaded warnings slapped onto your account.

It's very dangerous to be think for oneself around here, PJ... And to voice it is downright criminal.

Especially when there are umpteen posts about any perfume that comes down the pike. Not to mention Julia Roberts.

Books are not perfume. That's it in a nutshell. There are aspects to any book or other media concerning perfume that relate to itself, and not to the perfume under discussion.

I'm a longtime lurker, first time poster. I know it's bad form to jump in on an incendiary topic, but this bothers me. I can understand the need for moderators, if just barely, but unless something is off the charts I don't know why a mod can't just let a thread ride.

thank you so much for your post. In another post of mine that was deleted by PB yesterday I tried to explain by example why a book is not perfume, I believe I said that it was like saying that Jurrasic Park was a dinosaur not a movie. How bright must one be to not confuse a book with its subject?

I always click "new posts" and whatever pops up on my screen that interests me, I open....this means that ALL new posts from every area show up.
I admit I read more from "life" than arts but if I found a new post that showed there, I would post.

As a host mod, I feel badly when anyone feels slighted or offended--that is truly not anyone's intention. We really try to use very little influence on how the board goes...at least that is the rule we all try to abide by.

As a poster on other boards, I cannot tell you how painful and hurt I was when I was banned from posting for a week on a MENOPAUSE board...and it seemed like for no reason. My feelings were hurt ...looking back, I am sure the intent wasn't evil. Looking back, I still feel I didn't post anything wrong---but sometimes it is best to just take a breath and not take it personally. It is hard to do...just saying, I've been there.

I don't think your post will garner a dismisal...especially if it was just moved.

Deep breath.....deep breath....

I'll bow out now ..........

winemaven, thank you for you comments. The fact of the matter is that I am not happy that things might be fine for me because my post was sucessfully moved...I did not and do not want my post moved to the wrong section. IT IS A BOOK and it belongs in ARTS. If people want to write about the book anywhere else.... fine, but do not move my post.

Click to view attachmentWWWEEELLLLL . . . don't think Armanis hasn't been booted out of a forum, or two . . . I have been. The last one was a male fashion forum. I nearly had a breakdown, trying to 'relate.'

You were just jealous of their tie dimples, admit it.

Click to view attachmentOh, brother . . . one of them 'would find it hard to be friends, with a man who wears, navy trousers.'

Hey Pieganjane as you know if you read my comments prior to the threads deletion I didn't agree with your Book/Perfume point at all! But I disagree even MORE with that thread being deleted!! I read the whole thread and looked for new posts in it because it was very interesting. You said NOTHING objectionable.

So mods, was the thread deleted? If so I have to say that is incredibly heavy handed. We are adults here. The thread was not about the evil politics or religion which are already banned. We are adults who can discuss and disagree and occaisionally become upset without needing Mommy and Daddy moderator to take away the bad thread. Give me a break!

It has been "invisibilized" while the matter is discussed backchannel. Jeffrey's instructions to moderators have stressed doing as little as possible to interfere with the flow of communication. The thinking in your second paragraph expresses exactly how I feel about this, Teacake. Jane and the rest of us are adults and she has an opinion as an artist about what she means to say in the Arts forum. Heavy handed is the word that sprang to mind. Scolding, name calling, meddling, and belittling are not supposed to be in the moderators' job description. It's absurd to override Jane's assessment of where her thread belonged. If there was any room for debate, the balance should certainly tip in favor of the poster.

Jane was treated rudely. Any of us deserves to be treated politely here. Challenging an error in a moderator's judgment is not being rebellious - it's the right of a self-respecting person who values the truth.

I think everone is mising the scope of Prince Barry's intentions. I feel he merely was trying to be helpful and get the debateable topic into a place where more members would not only have a chance to offer opinion but also in a place where most members including myself would expect to find it.

It was clearly a case of personal judgement with altruisitc intentions. Honestly, I probably would have made the same call. I haven'y got to read the book yet although I own it. However, I was told there is alot of chemistry as it relates to perfume. As a chemist, e.g., an authority in chemistry, I feel the book relates more to the topic of perfume than art. Let me explain.....

There are two different views from which to create a perfume, 1. The artistic side in which you render your emotions, feelings, and nose to create your masterpiece, and 2. The scientific side in which you group your notes together based on the science and nature of chemical properties. It is true that points 1 and 2 can overlap and often do, however, the main focus, as I am told, revolves around the chemisty.

In my expereince, chemistry is not an art, it is a very hard natural science. Reactions are driven either spontaneously or by external factors such as catalysts. I don't think Luca was trying to be artsy fartsy with this book although I could be wrong. From what I know of him, his education, and previous writings, I would not classify his books as classical literature, contemporary, or modern. I think Luca is just Luca making his point and talking about what he loves.

This is just my opinion of course. As I said previously in another thread. There is no right or wrong here and the intentions of Prince Barry, I feel, where of clear conscience. So, perhaps we should ease up on him a bit because it is my opinion that this quandry is of little merrit and distracts from the whole learning and sharing of experiences that take place from day to day. That being said, lets get back to having fun and talking about our passions. I personally don't mind if someone wants to move a thread of mine. I don't sweat the small stuff and it is easier to get along with others if we pic and choose our complaints wisely.

I don't mind sharing with you that I just got banned from basenotes. I have been an outstanding member with no trouble for nearly two years. All the sudden, I was getting flammed for posting about a house that I love too frequently. Now that my friend, is worth fighting about! Who is anyone to tell moi what to post about as long as it is within the confines of the rules. Next thing I know, a mod stuck his fat nose where it didn't belong and sassed me. I of course don't take that kind of insible childishness with ease. That mod is the one who banned me which will soon be overturned. Although I am likely to get reinstated, I don't want to belong to a group of trouble makers who bicker over petty things. I always projected a humble attitude but sometimes even the nice guys have to get raunchy.

I share my story because I don't want to see things get out of hand here. If you were a member of basenotes, you would see how they treat newbies and members in general. Not only do they tell people what to do and what to post, hell, they created a whole board for newbies called "just starting out" because they don't like new comers posting. How ridiculous!

So, my time thus far of POL has been stellar! Lets all work together and keep it a place of fun spirited perfume lovers! To recap everthing, Prince Barry was just trying to serve your thread better by getting it more recognized by fitting it in a more appropriate place. Arguing over where it truely belongs is like arguing over what colors truely belong in a rainbow. You are the progenitor of this thread and naturally you want to have say over what forum it belongs to. However, moderators have a specific duty and sometimes have to make close calls. Unless I am attacked in a personal nature, I trust the mods know best and made a decision to the best of their ability. Taking everything personally is not the way to go. If I can smooth this over for you, I invite a mod to move one of my threads so that by example, we can be equal and move past this.

This is my sincere attempt to offer my opinion. I am neither for or against you my friend and write in support that you will move past this and keep writing of your experinces! Take care!

Moving the thread is one issue and the merits are debatable. I personally think that one should be able to discuss a book as a book, separate from its contents. Again, debatable. But that presumes that you can debate it.

But several posts were deleted, or "invisibled" and that's rawest censorship! And why? The likeliest explanation is that it was wanton exercise of power by a petty dictator. Without having seen the thread, I find it impossible to imagine that the posts in any way violated the POL TOS.

Oh my goodness! This is your THIRD post here and you "find it impossible to imagine that the posts in any way violated the POL TOS"?!?! They didn't, but why would you think that?? And you think "the likeliest explanation is that it was wanton exercise of power by a petty dictator"??? Wow. Why on EARTH would that be the LIKELIEST scenario?

Jane, you have my support in that I believe the book post should be left in Talk About the Arts.

BUT -- and this is a big but -- I respect the Prince, and trust that his decision was made with the best of intentions. Sometimes we misjudge. We're human. It happens. The issue has been brought to everyone's attention and the mods are working it out. Let's give 'em a little breathing room, shall we?

In the meantime.....READ ANY GOOD BOOKS LATELY?!!? I just read the most horrifically upsetting book called "As Nature Made Him". Uncannily, Rasputin mentioned this book here one day after I had brought it home with me to read. Never heard of it before that.

I just finished the Da Vinci Code. I have Angels and Deamons as well as The secret of scent lined up next. However, The Heir to the Empire is calling me!

I did say I've been lurking for a long time and acknowledged it's bad form to start posting in a contentious topic! Unfortunately, that's the kind of topic that brings us lurkers out of the woodwork.

I stand by my conclusions. You seem to agree that they the posts didn't violate POL TOS, so why shouldn't I have inferred that? Nothing that has been discussed here indicates that anything offensive was said in the invisible thread. So...

To paraphrase Tom Paine, "He moderates best who moderates least." Absent obvious offensiveness, which clearly didn't happen here, shouldn't posts be left to stand? And shouldn't moderating criteria outside outright violations of the TOS be open for discussion?

Huh... guys? The newbie is NOT ME, I promise! ;)

I can relate. On a certain figure skating board, I have some many red marks against me (and they are visisble on that board, for all to see,) that I'm almost ashamed to post there anymore. I guess I'm just too snarky for them, but honestly, they have so many double standards (depending on who you are,) that I seem to get dinged for everything...

I think the thread should be left intact on the Arts thread, because: 1) pieganjane is a long-respected member of this board; and 2) because books are art, and book publishing is under attack, and if we don't embrace, revere, and defend books, who will?

And isabellabird says she's been lurking, and since when do we require people to hold back until they've gotten their bones? That's for the Mafia, not for us. She's entitled to express any opinion she wants (why am I assuming that she's a she?) and, in my opinion, she's done it admirably. Let's give her a break.

Thanks, Cathleen!


...oh, and I am a she, of course, even though my avatar looks as if she might have a Y chromosome! Isabella was a tough old bird.

On the other hand, if a Mod Spanking Patrol formed on POL, it wouldn't suck... In fact, it could be downright hilarious. Hehe. I believe it's called "a system of checks and balances", in the US, oui? ;D

Pieganjane - I'm not an Arts board mod., but I just wanted to let you know that Barry moved your first post here: http://perfumeoflife.org/index.php?showtop...=0&#entry115253 purely because he thought more people would get to read it on the Perfume board - that's it. Barry did not delete your second post; a different moderator temporarily invisibilized it pending discussion. Also, you said you received a "warning", but no mod. that I know of issued an official "warning", so perhaps you need to PM Jeffrey to figure out what's up with that? Hopefully, it will all be sorted out in the morning and we can say "All's Well That Ends Well."

My two cents: I think this has less to do with "books" in general-- than with LT in particular. He is kind of a sacred cow around these here parts...

I once offered to translate some French-version LT reviews into English, and got read the riot act for THAT....

thanks to all who came to my defense. For the record, if I stay on POL I will continue to post any comments about a book in the arts section. Books are different than the subject matter they are about, be it perfume, chemistry, dinosaurs or food.
I have written close to forty books and they have been on a wide range of topics, but they are still books. Books are very precious and they are becoming endangered, bookstores are closing right and left. I may be mostly alone on this, but if I remain on POL I will still define a book as an art form.

I must honestly say that I agree with Jane. A book is an art form.

Pieganjane, please don't abandon POL! Your insightful comments and humor have always brightened my day.

Jane, if you had sent me a PM when I first moved your post, I would have moved it back without any problem. Instead you decided to shout your mouth off accusing me of deleting posts. Now that you are aware that I didn't delete your post and it was another moderator who had made it invisible, it would be nice to see a public apology to me for your false accusations.

Dave - re your 2 SCENTS - honestly, there is no vast BOVINE COW-spiracy - and always remember, one man's sacred cow is another man's fatted calf - i.e. tonight's barbeque!

Darlings, please...I loathe any sort of disharmony and this is really a tempest in a teapot. Jane is a lovely, cultivated, vivacious writer and Barry is a dear, caring, amusing teacher and RM. Both would enjoy each other's company enormously were they to meet for cocktails. I suggest we all put aside this momentary misunderstanding, hoist a virtual mai-tai, pass the chips, kick back and go back to enjoying the forums and each other. This is really not worth arguing over, especially since it involves two of the most delightful people on POL.

Kiss-kiss and chin-chin.

Barry; I do not think you deserve an apology of any sort. If you did not move the thread then why did you post "I thought it would be better served by moving it"? I choose to address this on the board and not in a PM to you which is my right. I do not like the sneaky underside of things on POL that I think your actions reflect. I do not need your permission to post anything that does not cross the guidelines.

I hate dissention. I feel a flashback coming - now I'm watching "Gunfight at the OK Corral". Must there be a showdown? Everyone involved is so worthy.

rather then reply to my comments Prince Barry has given my account two warnings, I guess one was not enough. For someone who had no responsibility with the action of moving my thread he certainly is taking the offensive. I suspect my days at POL are numbered...I will miss may of you, but obviously not all. I guess the concept of free speech (within guidelines) is just a quirky American notion.

meant many of you

Correction, I have only given you one warning. The first one was given to you by Jeffrey Dame a while ago.

Jeffrey Dame never issued me a warning. If he thought he gave me one that is news to me, when and what about?

2 warnings???

Gurrrrlllllll, are you tryin' to catch up with me? And besides... I could be completely wrong here, but I was under the impression that only Jeffrey Dame can issue warnings?
If I'm right, then you are being muscled with a big pile of steamy bull krap, Jane, but again, I could be wrong.

... If warnings that can result as bannings can now be issued by mods, instead of just the board owner, then things are about to get VERY interesting...

It was issued to you on 12th December 2005 for a post concerning Luca Turin. He sent you a PM informing you about it on the same day.

Don't worry boys and girls. Think of Armanis's classic line that Joan Crawford gave to the board of directors in Mommy Dearest. I can assure you, as a writer, I will always have the very last word.

Please print the post that Mr Dame sent. I have no idea what you are talking about, and I am sure that I never said anything about Mr T that needed censor.

This is the end of my contribution to this thread. The buck stops here. The reason is Susan Winters whose warmth and intelligence touched me to the core.

piegan, I've got to tell you . . . I wouldn't be a moderator on a forum. It's a lot more fun, in my honest opinion, to be the one who gets MODERATED. Nobody even asked me to become a moderator here at POL; I think my puckish personality helped me avoid such a request. I'd have turned it down, anyway. POL is comprised of intelligent, emotionally charged, highly opinionated people. Overall, I think we all do a great job, keeping ourselves 'under control.'

Try to understand too, that comminicating via electronic posting boards is difficult, to do. Voices are not heard. Facial expressions, don't exist. Gestures are absent. I've had a number of unpleasant encounters at online fora, that MAY have been caused by a misinterpreted word or two.

If necessary, I can bring Miss Crawford into this misunderstanding, as final arbiter. But she's the last resort. I intend to keep posting, and threading, and having fun, here at POL . . . I hope you do, too.

Mwah, mwah...xxxooo, love you both!

Waiter, let's have another round, add it to my tab, please.

Wow. I just got a heads up on this thread from another member, and I am amazed. Sounds like a big deal is being made of nothing at all!! I'm behind Pigeonjane on this one. I just checked on Talk About Perfume, and I see there's a thread on a book(?) by John Oakes.I assume this is ok?

Personally, I have no great love for Luca Turin, but I don't get crazed if I see his name on a Talk About Perfume thread. And from what I recall....his name has been mentioned quite often.

I think our moderator is having a bad day.

So... Does a book about body odor and halitosis belong in the perfume section?
Body odor and halitosis are smells afterall... But wouldn't it be better on the life page, because this is something some people have to deal with in life? But then, it is a book, so imo, it *is* art... Or in the food section because we know some foods can cause body odor and halitosis. Oh the headache.

AND HOW ABOUT A BOOK SECTION?

For ALL kinds of books. No? Because WHO is to decide what is and is not art, around here? But everybody knows what a book is...